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Bud
01-25-2008, 01:10 PM
Is there any consideration of a separate class for the new shooter, with a spring gun, that can not compete against pre-charged in cost or accuracy ?

shoot often
01-25-2008, 02:10 PM
Bud,
It looks like the answer is no. This game was not made to bring in new shooters, it came
about because of people wanting to shoot cheaper ammo..
Takecare Kevin Kunkle

Gary Lemons
01-25-2008, 03:04 PM
Maybe I missed something in the rules, but I don't see where spring guns are prohibited nor do I see where CA guns are required. Even pistols are allowed. Why not just show up and shoot the class your gun's muzzle velocity puts it in?

Kevin,
A lot of us who are contemplating shooting airgun benchrest haven't shot an airgun since our childhood BB gun days. So, in essence, we are new shooters when it comes to airgun benchrest. I'd like to know which gun is the best, as would many others, but I don't have a clue since this is basically a new game for all of us. Since BR-50 days, the rifles have changed quite a bit based on what I can read on the subject. Without any objective benchrest accuracy tests available, this first year is going to be a learning curve for the majority of shooters.

Here are the classes in case someone hasn't read the rules:

A. Unlimited
Unlimited scope power. Muzzle velocity greater than 600 fps. Gun must be designed to be shoulder fired or for pistols, hand held

B. Match
Same rules as unlimited class. Muzzle velocity 600fps or less.

C. SPORT
Any rifle or pistol without a scope, no restrictions as to muzzle velocity.

I think Ron and the others did a good job putting together a set of classes that allows almost any airgun to be used in the matches.

Gary

DonMatzeder
01-25-2008, 05:45 PM
After they figure out how hard the iron sight class is going to be, maybe it will be replaced with a springgun class next year....there will be several spring guns shot at the match tomorrow. Mostly in the match gun class I think.

Bud
01-27-2008, 07:17 PM
Our club held a 45 yard match. I won the spring gun class. But the precharge class out shot the spring guns with ease. There is no way the two should be in the same class. IMHO

Dave Shattuck
01-28-2008, 11:31 AM
Bud,

I agree with you. But, as Gary said; most of us are new to competing with airguns. This will be a work in progress for quite a while longer, so be patient.

Personally, my last experience with anything less than a rimfire dates back some 25 years to when my own kids were younger. And now here I am right smack-dab in the middle of trying to do anything I can to help develope this association. As for the overall group of organizers: some of us have experienced airgun competition, and others, like myself, are just learning what it's all about. The one thing we all have in common though is; we all have several years of benchrest experience and will do whatever it takes to make sure this new discipline succeeds.

In the end I think everyone will be able to find something to suite most every need. And if you can't, don't be shy about speaking up and sharing your thoughts, ideas and opinions with other shooters, including this committee, as that is the only way to achieve any type of growth as things move along. It is only a fool who thinks that a new idea, any idea regardless of its source, is not worthy for concideration.

Dave

Dan Hankins
01-28-2008, 02:06 PM
Dave, I have a few comments regarding the air gun bench rest rules.

I was at the first competition in Berryville on Saturday. Don did a great job of putting on this match.

I was selected to be one of the three referies. What we saw was that as the rules are written the .22 cal has a big advantage over the .177.

The Sporter class is difficult. I shot that class with a RWS75S T01 which is a spring piston, 10 m, .177 rifle. That means you have to remove the rifle from the rest to cock and load it. I think the targets are too close together and too small and do not need the white in the center. Another ring of black without a scoring factor, only for visibility, would be nice. I finished second in this class. This is a work out. I would suggest that a little more time be added to this class as you need to use a spotting scope to tell where your next target is and to see your last shot.

Match class. To the best of my limited knowledge there never was a match air rifle made in .22 cal. They are all .177 and have been for years. A well built and shot .22 cal. precharged rifle has a huge advantage in this class, and it was a sporter style precharged .22 that won the class. It was well shot and prepared and complied with the rules as they now stand. I suggest that the match rifle class be shot by match rifles which means that they have an adjustable butt pad or cheek piece and were specifically built for 10 m match use, therefore being limited to .177 cal.

After plugging these targets in all classes it is clear that the .22 has a real advantage. If you are interested in getting the guys that shot BR-50 air gun classes to drag out those match guns they might have You will find that they are all .177 and have a distinct disadvantage.

I think that the old BR-50 air gun rules had finally got it right in providing a pretty level playing field. I think the ability to use .22 in the Match class for sure and possibly the sporter class as well may be a rule that does not attract shooters.

As far as unlimited class goes, the title says it all. If you want to build a .22 cal super rifle, fine. That gives the tinkerers and others a place to try out experimental guns and I think it deserves a class to do so.

As for spring piston rifles. As the rules stand now they have little to no chance to compete in .177 and a very good shooter with a lot of luck might compete in the unlimited class with a .22, but he is at a real disadvantage as he has to cock and load that rifle, which requires removing the rifle from the rest each shot. At the shoot there were four spring piston rifles shooting the unlimited class. Two HW-97s, a tuned HW-77, and my misbehaving TX-200.
We did not stand a chance. All of the spring piston rifles in the unlimitted class were shot by pretty good shooters and all were .177 cal.

Well there you have it. Hope I did not come off like a sore looser. I don't feel that way at all. Ya'll have created a great venue for .22 cal air rifles. I hope to be proven wrong. One reason is that the match rifles especially, in .177 cal. can be used to shoot 10 m matches and bench rest with no compromise to the rifle. Making it a .22 eliminates it's use in any 10 m competition.

I am done now. The above is just my opinion.

Respectfully,
Dan Hankins

Dave Shattuck
01-28-2008, 04:46 PM
Dan,

I appreciate your candor as that is what we need to get things right. And given enough time we will get it right. Believe me!

So, Bud, do you see what I'm talking about? Without a little back-and-forth sharing of experiences and knowledge, some will just go away mad and never say anything, but we don't want that. So, with a little open discussion things can get worked out.

Dan, I will refer the rest of the board to your above comments and see if we can't get this worked out somehow.

Thank you,

Dave

hw97
01-28-2008, 09:05 PM
While I had a great time and will be doing it again. Dan has hit the nail on the head. I agree with everthing he said. With that said X's for all. tim

Joe Friedrich
01-29-2008, 12:41 AM
Dan makes a valid point. I have not seen all the different types of spring guns but i would assume most are pushing over 800 fps up to 22 cal. I would suggest adding a spring class only.

If we are to attract new shooters, and keep them coming back i feel this would be of interest. If one chooses to compete with one in other classes already stated in the rules, so be it, but when they finally realize their scores are not satisfactory to the overall results being shot for that class, then at least they will have a class to fall back into.

JMO.

KingSnake
01-29-2008, 09:57 AM
If people feel that the 22 cal advantage makes that much difference and we determine after several matches that a 22 cal will hands down win every match that we shoot then we will need to seperate the 0.177 cals from the 22 cals. Depending on the number of shooters involved this year we will be able to determine the classes that are actually needed so that everyone finds their niche in the system.

When I devised the layout for the rules, I pretty much figured that most people would shoot in 1 or two classes. For me, I'm primarily interested in the 0.177 cal and in Match and Unlimited shooting.

chardosmith
01-29-2008, 04:25 PM
If people feel that the 22 cal advantage makes that much difference and we determine after several matches that a 22 cal will hands down win every match that we shoot then we will need to seperate the 0.177 cals from the 22 cals. Depending on the number of shooters involved this year we will be able to determine the classes that are actually needed so that everyone finds their niche in the system.

When I devised the layout for the rules, I pretty much figured that most people would shoot in 1 or two classes. For me, I'm primarily interested in the 0.177 cal and in Match and Unlimited shooting.


I do think that a 22 has an advantage over and equally accurate 177 rifle as my cyclone 22 did a great job with a poor trigger and a light weight sporter stock with an inexperienced shooter.... However, Don did very well with his 177 USFT. However, I am sure Don could have had a better score if his barrel had been shooting 22 pellets and hear that he is shopping 22 barrels to make a better tool for winning AG BR competitions.

Do we need a separate class for 22? Should we keep match guns at only 177? This is for the organizers to determine. Shoot what you have. If you want to have the best odds of winning, it will be with a 22 caliber PCP. If you only have a 177 springer you can still shoot, but you'll be at a disadvantage. I attended one BR match with an unaltered Anschutz 54 and sandbags. Don and the rest of the guys had one piece rests, custom actions, custom barrels, custom stocks. I participated, but wasn't really competitive partly due to equipment. No matter what your restrictions, you are going to have people customize their equipment to maximize their ability to win. If you want class that dictates 10M guns that are sued in 10M competitions that have NOT been altered to change power or caliber, then you have a very specific set of rules. Is that the best for the sport?? I'll leave that to the administration.....

Good luck optimizing the rules for the most people. I do think keeping it simple will be best, but acknowledge that it will be an equipment issue no matter how the rules develop.

BJS6
01-29-2008, 08:01 PM
Why not just design the target around say a 25 calibre hole, inward gauging, and use a 25 calibre gauge to determine the shot. You could stipulate a maximum 25 calibre for those that may want to use some of the bigger bore air rifles out there.

That way no calibre has an advantage over another, people can run what they want on an even playing field. We did that with 100 and 200 metre sporting rifle centrefire postion target shooting. We used an 8mm gauge and inward gauging so 222's could compete with 308's on a fair basis.

It would become like centrefire score otherwise, the 30BR wins bacause it has a fat hole and is as accurate as a PPC, the very accurate 22-100 PPC doesn't even feature because the hole isn't fat enough. It becomes about knocking out a big disc of target paper rather than pure accuracy.

Just random thoughts.

Bryce