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Bilrus61
01-24-2008, 01:44 PM
Just got 4 boxes of Eley Tenex 1007-02134 1076 and each bullet has damage. It looks like feeding damage but I think its factory. On the edge of the flat there is a 45 degree mushed area on one side. I opened two boxes and both boxes are the exact same. I hold the bullets up to the puter screen and twist them in my fingers and they are "out of round". Do I need to return them or what? My black box EPS wasn't like this.

Keith23
01-24-2008, 02:00 PM
Check the new Black box stuff. You may find it is just the same.:mad:

JLG.
01-24-2008, 03:04 PM
Cant be true I thought thats why we pay the extra $13 for Q.C.???????????:confused:

Robb_H
01-24-2008, 03:05 PM
My club have just returned 5000 rnds of black top to Eley for the same reason :eek: They were exchanged without problem but I'm not convinced the replacements are very much better :mad:

See my post on another forum with pictures, here. http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247804

Houston Harry
01-24-2008, 03:22 PM
I just got a brick from Midway USA of Eley EPS and checked. They have the same problem others are describing...lot number 1107-05097-1080. I'm going to try a box this weekend - if my targets are off, then I call Midway and exchange the remaining.

GordonE
01-24-2008, 03:34 PM
You could try and index them like they do with a barrel.

Pete Roberson
01-24-2008, 03:46 PM
You could try and index them like they do with a barrel.

Gordon,
You have WAY TO MUCH TIME ON YOUR HANDS!!!!!!:D;):D
Pete

ThaiBoxer
01-24-2008, 05:18 PM
You could try and index them like they do with a barrel.Ha! I hear if you tap them and listen with a stethoscope they'll tell you which way is best.

Bilrus61
01-24-2008, 06:07 PM
So there are lots of them like that out there. I'll index them in the clip and hope that negates all ill effects. How come nobody's talked about this before???:confused: Are these seconds and the "good stuff" gets parcled out to the big time shooters? If thats the deal I'm glad I found out early enough in my "benchrest career" to go back to Silhouette shooting.;)

GordonE
01-24-2008, 08:21 PM
Bilrus, The big question is Did You Shoot Any of them? Second Question Did You Feed Them From A Clip? Then the rest of the problems. To much wax, To little wax, Crimp to loose, Crimp to tight, Lead has air pockets, Weight to heavy, to light, My gun only shoots one speed. And the list goes on. Shoot some, The holes in the paper will tell you a lot more than your puter screen.

brad541thb
01-24-2008, 09:00 PM
This message has been deleted by Mike S. Reason: decided to behave myself

Now that's funny! :D

Bilrus61
01-24-2008, 09:28 PM
I just got 'em. I've had some EPS before with the black box. Wasn't like this. My complaint was simply the appearance. If you check out Robb H post/link you'll see pics. Not fed them from a clip....every bullet has the same uneven look/dent right out of the box. Not shot them yet. I'll see how they shoot this Saturday. Yes I know that the holes in the paper tell the tail but its 20 degrees out and the wind is howling.:D I just wanted to see if anyone else has seen this in Eley EPS and I can see that its pretty common. I'm relieved (I guess....) and will try them out.The reason I was holding them up to the computer screen as its a good background to check out visually any distortions.

tim
01-24-2008, 09:38 PM
Guys that little angle has been like that on most lots for at least 2 years, does'nt seem to affect anything although I suspect Cecil has an engineering book with the exact calculation.:D

Fiddler
01-25-2008, 07:54 AM
have a case of Tenex and a case of Black Box that show the same signs as being talked about. Todate I have shot several 250's with high X counts with this ammo. Seems to be no problems that I can see. I have shot this ammo on several occasions with different temps and wind conditions with no problems at all. Temps from mid 60's to high 20's, wind from 2-4 mph to 10-15 mph. Hope this gives you an idea at least with my tests.

pacecil
01-25-2008, 12:02 PM
Matter of fact I do have a book that tells me what happens when you remove material from one side of a bullet. It's "The Bullet's Flight". It was written about 100 years ago by F. W. Mann who was a doctor of medicine not an engineer, so maybe you would like the book. He might be considered one of the first benchrest shooters. If you haven't read this, you should, for a shooter it's got a lot of old but good stuff in it.

GordonE
01-25-2008, 01:04 PM
Cecil, Are you sure you could get good information out of a book! This is the age of computers. Would you turn the page with the same finger that you use on the Enter Key being your trigger finger?

tim
01-25-2008, 09:26 PM
Matter of fact I do have a book that tells me what happens when you remove material from one side of a bullet. It's "The Bullet's Flight". It was written about 100 years ago by F. W. Mann who was a doctor of medicine not an engineer, so maybe you would like the book. He might be considered one of the first benchrest shooters. If you haven't read this, you should, for a shooter it's got a lot of old but good stuff in it.

Have it and virtually everything else that covers precision shooting since the inception of the false muzzle, both here and Germany.Still even shoot one of the first match.22's made in this country Cecil, a Stevens Walnut hill, come on ya gotta do better than that. By the way there's nothing removed, just a small dent in the edge of the tip.

Brian Brandt
01-25-2008, 11:28 PM
I went and looked at sum of my eley lots from 1005,1006,1007 all have the same marking on the lead. I then looked at my eley eps from early 2000's and its the same way I don't believe its a defect if it is its not hurting anything.

Bill Wynne
01-26-2008, 07:24 AM
Those bullets are defective and you should not shoot them. Just pack them up and send them to me and I will test them all.:)

pacecil
01-26-2008, 09:37 AM
Hey Tim, if you are going to grow up to be a big benchrest shooter you have to learn to pay attention to the little things, especially "little dents". Little dents in your barrel might cause you a problem; a little dent in the crown could be a real headache; a little dent any part is what we book-smart-a** engineers call a stress raiser and might lead to a problem for you. I'm sure you are already aware of what a little dent in your primers has caused! As for those little dents in bullets...well, just be careful!

Cowboy4
01-26-2008, 09:50 AM
Billy,
Give those boxes to Doug, Roger, and Ron. I would take them off your hands, but I won't be there today for you guys to beat up on.
See you next month.

Boyd

tim
01-26-2008, 02:13 PM
Hey Tim, if you are going to grow up to be a big benchrest shooter you have to learn to pay attention to the little things, especially "little dents". Little dents in your barrel might cause you a problem; a little dent in the crown could be a real headache; a little dent any part is what we book-smart-a** engineers call a stress raiser and might lead to a problem for you. I'm sure you are already aware of what a little dent in your primers has caused! As for those little dents in bullets...well, just be careful!

Well Cec I shot a bunch of 250's with them dents, How'd you do?....Cecil....Cecil...? I forgot,
I think Bill Meyers called it ... a keyboard shooter.

Bilrus61
01-26-2008, 07:47 PM
Got 2nd place out of ten shooters. I didn't index them. I was shooting a factory Anschutz 54.18 MSR. We were shooting indoors (but drafty and cold) at 25 yards off of wobbly 3 leg tables. I shot a 250 12X and got beat by a full blown custom benchrest gun that shot 250 17X. Pretty enjoyable.

pacecil
01-26-2008, 08:48 PM
Well just think what you might have done if you didn't have dented bullets!!!

Joe Haller
01-26-2008, 10:37 PM
I have a copy of Dr. Mann's book: "The Bullets Flight". My wife gave it to me as a Christmas present many years ago.

I recall that in one of Dr. Mann's experiments where he deformed the nose and the base of his lead bullets: He found that a deformed nose did not affect accuracy, but that a deformed base had a profound effect on accuracy.

Most of Dr. Mann's experiments were done with 38 caliber rifles and with lead bullets from a machine rest. Read his "stuff" and you realize the man was WAY ahead of his time, when it came to rifle ballistics.

Right Cecil?

Joe Haller (Mr. Frosty)

pacecil
01-27-2008, 06:09 PM
You mention "many years ago" - I got "The Bullet's Flight when I was 16. Now, that was MANY years ago!

You also mentioned "machine rest". Actually what he use was a barreled receiver mounted in rings and then the whole assembly laid in a big V block. I wonder why nobody uses that nowdays in benchrest??

In the book Mann ran tests with a scope to determine if mirage had any effect on aiming. Basically he found it didn't. I've never been able to figure that out!

tim
01-27-2008, 08:02 PM
That might be because the scopes of the day were about 6 power including a simple lens system that would not pick up any but the most severe mirage.

ThaiBoxer
01-27-2008, 09:15 PM
That might be because the scopes of the day were about 6 power including a simple lens system that would not pick up any but the most severe mirage.
In which case you'd expect the effect to be MOST apparent, would you not?

Ben

tim
01-27-2008, 11:01 PM
Ben, just the opposite.The higher the magnification the more apparant the mirage.
Remember when Leupold first came with the 45x's folks first thought the mirage shooting would be tougher but you picked up stuff that the 36's did not.
This summer set up an experiment for yourself, set up your sporter with the 6x on a 50yd. target in the afternoon on a nice sunny day, then switch to the next gun with a 36x. I'd guess you'll detect quite a bump in "apparant" mirage. It's the same you just see it better.

Wilbur
01-27-2008, 11:28 PM
A friend had a 36X bumped to 45X and the mirage was intolerable. When Leupold hit the street with the 45X I assumed it would be similar but was pleasantly surprised. What is the difference - focal length???

I read somewhere that the mirage seen existed where the scope was focused and not a sum of the entire distance....

ThaiBoxer
01-27-2008, 11:42 PM
I guess that is my point. If the mirage is bad enough that you can see it in a 6x scope, there must really be some hopping air action downrange. If mirage is just an optic phenomenon that does not equate to point-stealing, bullet-moving air movement, it's just something to endure or ignore, n'est pas?

Ben

Joe Haller
01-28-2008, 02:20 AM
Dr. Mann did his mirage experiment in September of 1903. He was using a 16 power scope with a 1 inch objective lens. He was looking at 2 inch white circles at from 100 to 200 yards in three different directions. Claimed he could not see mirage. I would think if he had used white and black strips or looked at a horizontal line on the target frame, he could have seen mirage with that 16X scope.

Then too, he mentioned that at least on one day it was windy. Ya don't see mirage at a speed over 7 MPH.

And Wilber is right: You see the mirage at the distance the scope is focused. When I was shooting NRA smallbore prone tournaments: With irons I would focus my spotting score just a little short of the target. It worked. And with my 20X Lyman Super Target Spot I could see mirage: (When it was there.)

Mr. Frosty

tim
01-28-2008, 04:57 PM
I guess that is my point. If the mirage is bad enough that you can see it in a 6x scope, there must really be some hopping air action downrange. If mirage is just an optic phenomenon that does not equate to point-stealing, bullet-moving air movement, it's just something to endure or ignore, n'est pas?

Ben

It's an atmosphereic phenomenon. Just because you can't see it with lower power dose not mean it's not there.
Another interesting experiment with the 45's, set your gun up and aim at a 200 yard mothball on a nice sunny day a nd watch how the dot moves all over the place.

pacecil
01-28-2008, 10:59 PM
The question isn't whether or not you can see mirage with one scope or another, the question is whether mirage causes an error in aiming. Mann found that it did not. When I set up a scope on a bench looking through mirage I found that the crosshairs DO dance around on the target. In other words mirage did cause an error in aiming. I know other shooters have also found this to be the case. I also know that light rays coming from the target should be bent by the mirage and and this this should cause an error in aiming. I put all this in a post a long time ago but didn't get any real response at that time except that Mann must have just been wrong. Is that the opinion of everyone posting here?

ThaiBoxer
01-28-2008, 11:49 PM
The question to me is whether the mirage is a valid indication of moving air that will screw up my bullet's flight, i.e. Guerin's "wind that you can see". Since it seems that mirage is only visible at the focal plane the scope is set at, which is generally at the destination point, estimates of the displacement effect of the mirage should be pointless.

My experience seems to be to wait for the next breeze to blow out mirage. While I can just aim for the midpoint in a shimmering image, the bullet holes seem overly whimsical.

ProneShooter
01-29-2008, 05:34 AM
The mirage issue was on the board a couple of years ago. I hear shooters talking about the wind blowing a shot out when it really was the mirage causing them to aim in the wrong place. There are numerous articles on mirage and how to deal with it. I always shoot based on mirage first and wind second.

GordonE
01-29-2008, 05:52 AM
ProneShooter, I am with you on that 100 percent. My 45 power scope works just fine. I can see it when the guys with 36 say they don't see any.

Keith23
01-29-2008, 09:51 AM
Proneshooter "I always shoot based on mirage first and wind second."

Could you please post your method of shooting for mirage first and wind second?

I for one missed the previous thread on this subject. Thanks.

tim
01-29-2008, 06:52 PM
The question to me is whether the mirage is a valid indication of moving air that will screw up my bullet's flight, i.e. Guerin's "wind that you can see". Since it seems that mirage is only visible at the focal plane the scope is set at, which is generally at the destination point, estimates of the displacement effect of the mirage should be pointless.

My experience seems to be to wait for the next breeze to blow out mirage. While I can just aim for the midpoint in a shimmering image, the bullet holes seem overly whimsical.

Ben in theory this works and frankly at the distances most rimfire is shot it becomes largely academic.
At longer distances in centerfire, for instance, you sometimes cannot even see the mothball at 200 yards and especially 300 yards. I only bring this to the table as an extreme example of the mirage question. When this happens you quickly learn what the mirage board is used for, again, virtually not needed at 50yards or so.
This is why the 45's, like Gordon said, often make shooting "subtle" mirage easier, the stuff you don't see at 36x but it might be worth a bullet hole or two.

John Kielly
01-29-2008, 07:14 PM
I read somewhere that the mirage seen existed where the scope was focused and not a sum of the entire distance....

I think depth of field might come into it too. I was behind one of those big Unertl spotting scopes at 1200 yards a couple of years ago & you could see layers of mirage crossing over each other nearly back to your toenail.