PDA

View Full Version : 17 rimfire



c.robertson
01-23-2008, 09:02 PM
This has probably been beat to death before, but here goes again:
WHEN, if ever, will "rimfire" include the 17HMR??
Is it because the .22RF shooters are just plain afraid of being outshot??
Or ???? WHAT?
Please, if is going to throw rocks for asking, please use little ones.:)

Beau
01-23-2008, 09:34 PM
It will be included when it becomes popular enough that shooters get together and hold .17 matches. I'm sure some of that happens right now, but it hasn't caught on like the .22. I doubt that .22 shooters are afraid of being outshot anymore than they would by a .22PPC. Basically, it's a different cartridge and a different class even if the ignition is essentially the same. If it does become increasingly popular, I'm sure you will see .22 bench guns shifted to the .17.

tim
01-23-2008, 10:26 PM
As was said, it is first and foremost a different round entirely. Part of the challange here is the fact that we're dealing with a waxed lead slug and it's fundamental to the discipline.

Mr. D
01-23-2008, 10:35 PM
I'm a 17 HMR shooter, and I'm not convinced that the 17 HMR is stable enough for a true benchrest competitive round. It seems to have the characteristics of slightly over bore cartridges. It sure is a dandy in the field for small varmint shooting!

cadillacjack
01-23-2008, 10:35 PM
USBR has a .17 rimfire class

gordon gauge
01-23-2008, 10:39 PM
First and foremost, the .17 Hummer is inherently more accurate and no waxy slug would have any fun shooting against it. The .17, and the 22ppc to a greater extent, will do at 100 yards what the .22rimfire will do at 50 yards.

Beau
01-23-2008, 11:20 PM
I think I'll open a bar and call it "The Waxy Slug".

John Kielly
01-23-2008, 11:29 PM
I think I'll open a bar and call it "The Waxy Slug".
Be careful which ear you put your hibiscus flower behind. ;)

tim
01-23-2008, 11:33 PM
First and foremost, the .17 Hummer is inherently more accurate and no waxy slug would have any fun shooting against it. The .17, and the 22ppc to a greater extent, will do at 100 yards what the .22rimfire will do at 50 yards.

Inherently more accurate? Based on what? 22PPC????

brad541thb
01-24-2008, 12:48 AM
I've shot the 17HMR's enough to know that regardless of how super duper of a 17 filabuster you got, it ain't going to out shoot a custom 22 rimfire bench gun at 50yds. That's group shooting or score shooting. Now there will be those that think they know they got one that will, but I haven't seen one or the shooter that thinks he's got one that will when it comes time to prove it. I had a Cooper 57LVT 17HMR and 2 Marlin 17HMR's and they all shoot real well. But none of them would even come close to touching the Suhl with the factory barrel or with the custom Benchmark barrel it now has. Those that think they got a 17MR that will out shoot a custom bench gun 22lr probably just don't know anything about how accurate a custom 22lr is, or they wouldn't be making these claims. I know that I put my foot in my mouth years ago when I thought too, that my Cooper 17HMR would hang with a custom bench 22. I was wrong. I ate my words. The Cooper was a nice shooting gun, but it won't shoot with a custom 22. It may on occasion out shoot one, but then again, don't hold your breath waiting on the Avon lady. :D

brad541thb
01-24-2008, 01:00 AM
And I'll take that one step farther, on good calm days, a good custom bench 22lr will still shoot groups at 100yds with a great shooting 17HMR and shoot some maybe even smaller that the best shooting 17HMR gun. The 17HMR is probably more than likely on day to day shooting gonna be the winner at 100yds shooting groups or score because they are less susceptible to the wind. But on good calm days, a custom bench 22lr can shoot 5 shot groups that can be covered with a dime. I know because I have done it. Groups in the .3's to .5's can be shot with these super accurate 22lr guns. Randy McCarver's turbo/Lilja barrel has shot a 5 shot .275ctc 100yd group that is just unbelieveably small. The best I have shot with my original Suhl barrel was .375. I've only shot it 2 different times at 100yds. I managed about 5 different 5 shot groups that all could be covered with a dime. The Benchmark barrel on the Suhl now I believe can easily beat that group on a calm day.

derek casey
01-24-2008, 01:40 PM
I've shot the 17HMR's enough to know that regardless of how super duper of a 17 filabuster you got, it ain't going to out shoot a custom 22 rimfire bench gun at 50yds. That's group shooting or score shooting. Now there will be those that think they know they got one that will, but I haven't seen one or the shooter that thinks he's got one that will when it comes time to prove it. I had a Cooper 57LVT 17HMR and 2 Marlin 17HMR's and they all shoot real well. But none of them would even come close to touching the Suhl with the factory barrel or with the custom Benchmark barrel it now has. Those that think they got a 17MR that will out shoot a custom bench gun 22lr probably just don't know anything about how accurate a custom 22lr is, or they wouldn't be making these claims. I know that I put my foot in my mouth years ago when I thought too, that my Cooper 17HMR would hang with a custom bench 22. I was wrong. I ate my words. The Cooper was a nice shooting gun, but it won't shoot with a custom 22. It may on occasion out shoot one, but then again, don't hold your breath waiting on the Avon lady. :D
i have a custom biult .17hmr. i baught a savage 93 fvss. the first thing i did was have a stock maker inlet a synthed benchrest stock for it(nobody offers a synthedic stock in the after market for savage rifles). then i had the pin holding the barrel pressed out and everything measured. the next step was to set the barrel back and put a match chamber in it. then the crown was redone to a 11 degree crown. they put the barrel back in redrilled the pin hole, pressed it back in and then they did some more work to the bolt and action. this rifle is now the most accurate .17hmr i have ever shot. i would put it up against a .22lr match rifle. they don't make match rounds for it yet that i know of. if they did i truely believe these rifles would really give a .22lr a big run for it's money. last summer i won the points race at our local with mine(we made a hmr class just for them). i know people will laugh and poke me with sharp sticks here but they do shoot all to well and if you put money into them they will shoot outstandingly. there should be a class for them and somebody needs to make match rounds for them.i sterted out with a $235 rifle and now have well over $1000 in it counting the stock and other mod's the smith did to it. i have a web sight that also offers the same treatment to savage .17hmr's if anybody wants it. heres a picture. http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p19/gonzogunner/funtimes006.jpg

burtona
01-24-2008, 05:12 PM
A couple of years or three ago RBA sanctioned .17 matches as a trial to gauge interest. Wasn't much as I remember but a club or two did run some 17 matches. Go to the RBA results archives and see how the scores stack up against the 22 scores. I think you will see why there wasn't much interest.

derek casey
01-24-2008, 07:28 PM
like i said before, nobody makes match rounds for these lil monsters yet. i'd love to see just how accurate mine is with match rounds. besides putting a .17hmr up against a .22lr that is totaly made to be a match rifle is wrong on many different levels. mine is meant to be a macth rifle. i had all the same work done to it you all do to you .22lr's. the main difference is there is no match rounds for these. that is what makes alot of the main difference. you take and put plain hunting rounds in you .22lr's and i'll use the hunting rounds in mine and let's play. then the field is even. that could only be the fair way of doing it. no match rounds. just the regular store baught mass produced hunting rounds. fair is fair. who know's what rifle will win then. i was looking into a tuner for mine but it shot so good without it why bother. i'm buying a 40x tomorrow myself so i'll have a chance to play around some then. i''l shoot some plain mass produced hunting round's in it one day and then try the hmr. i believe the hmr will out shoot it. now with match rounds the 40x hands down. i know this. somebody needs to step up and make match rounds for the hmr's.

brad541thb
01-24-2008, 09:17 PM
A couple of years or three ago RBA sanctioned .17 matches as a trial to gauge interest. Wasn't much as I remember but a club or two did run some 17 matches. Go to the RBA results archives and see how the scores stack up against the 22 scores. I think you will see why there wasn't much interest.

Enuff said!

Amen!

Like I said go shoot some IR50/50 or RBA or ARA targets and see if you can come close to the scores these guys shoot with today's custom turbos, 40X's Hall's, Suhls, Anschutz's, etc... and you will see for yourself that your living in a dream world. I thought the same as you Dereck. Like I said, I was wronnnggg! Way wronnnggg!

I hear alot about the 17 lacking match quality ammunition, and I agree to an extent. but even if you had super match grade ammo, don't hold your breath to beating any of the current 22 rimfire records in each of these 3 sanctioned shooting organizations. If you doubt me, check the records and good luck trying to beat them even if you have a $5000 17HMR.

I like the 17HMR's, but I won't let the hype of this round put it in a class it is not.

Brad

Mr. D
01-24-2008, 09:28 PM
And I'll take that one step farther, on good calm days, a good custom bench 22lr will still shoot groups at 100yds with a great shooting 17HMR and shoot some maybe even smaller that the best shooting 17HMR gun. The 17HMR is probably more than likely on day to day shooting gonna be the winner at 100yds shooting groups or score because they are less susceptible to the wind. But on good calm days, a custom bench 22lr can shoot 5 shot groups that can be covered with a dime. I know because I have done it. Groups in the .3's to .5's can be shot with these super accurate 22lr guns. Randy McCarver's turbo/Lilja barrel has shot a 5 shot .275ctc 100yd group that is just unbelieveably small. The best I have shot with my original Suhl barrel was .375. I've only shot it 2 different times at 100yds. I managed about 5 different 5 shot groups that all could be covered with a dime. The Benchmark barrel on the Suhl now I believe can easily beat that group on a calm day.

I don't shoot well enough to argue the point, but my CZ #453 17 HMR varmint shoots some groups in those sizes offf a Harris bipod and believe me I'm no benchrest shooter! (See group below!)

I still question whether the 17 HMR is as reliable in consistent groupings due to the amount of powder that has to be burned as compared to a 22 LR. It seems like trying to out group a .223 or 22 Centerfire benchrest cartridge with a 22-250 or a 220 Swift! I think it is an uphill fight as you go the towards direction of overbore cartridges!

That's been my experience in hand loading! Am I off base in my assumption bench rest experts?

brad541thb
01-24-2008, 09:40 PM
Mr. D,

That's all wonderful but what I said holds water to this date and time.

I've shot some great groups too with my Suhl. I mean tons of great ones like these and just a tad bigger. But score shooting and group shooting are way different. Score shooting is just plain tuffer. Way tufffer.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/546/medium/23790IMGP2216.JPG

brad541thb
01-24-2008, 09:44 PM
The guys I have shot with up in St. Louis shooting ARA clean my clock score shooting. Joe Besche, Mark Meadows, Darrel Barnes, etc have guns that will make a lot of good shooting guns seem tiny in comparison. :(

Mr. D
01-25-2008, 05:17 AM
Mr. D,

That's all wonderful but what I said holds water to this date and time.

I've shot some great groups too with my Suhl. I mean tons of great ones like these and just a tad bigger. But score shooting and group shooting are way different. Score shooting is just plain tuffer. Way tufffer.



Just curious, did you read my post carefully??? :confused:

I think I was trying to say that I don't believe a 17 HMR will compete with a 22 L.R. at 50 meters or maybe even 100 yards. I shoot one for varminting for the ballistics, but I wouldn't bet the farm it would compete with a 22 L.R. at 50 or 100 yds. I assume I might get a few more ground squirrels than you at 150 to 200 yds and with a few less wounded running in circles! Maybe not, due to operator error! :D

As to score shooting being tougher that group shooting. I'll take your word for it! That's beyond my knowledge! I'm a field shooter that tries to achieve bench rest accuracy standards! I can try! :rolleyes:

What do you think about my opinion about the 17 HMR having some of the over bore accuracy problems of cartridges like the 22-250 and 220 Swift in center fires?

brad541thb
01-25-2008, 06:27 AM
You might have something there, but I don't know for sure.

The 17HMR is a great little round that fired me up to how accurate a cheap rimfire can be. They definately will out shoot a lot of standard production 22lr guns no doubt about it. I believe in time that the ammo will hopefully get even better than it is. Time will tell I guess.

The thing about score shooting that is so tough vs group shooting is that your constantly moving your gun from target to target where as group shooting your not. It's much easier to put 5 shots through almost the same hole than it is to shoot the center out of 5 bulls with individual shots on each bull. When you move the gun from bull to bull, it seems to disrupt the gun more than just group shooting and has a tendency to change your point of impact. Good consistant tracking in the bags or rest is crucial, along with good ammo and watching the wind flags to timing when to shoot each shot. This is where all the variables come in to play. Having a gun that will shoot the centers out of each and every bull when score shooting is what we all strive to have. And some of us probably just don't do our guns justice. I'm probably one of the latter. But I can tell you that it is extremely difficult to make your bullet hit the centers of 25 individual bulls.

gordon gauge
01-26-2008, 03:14 PM
First and foremost, the .17 Hummer is inherently more accurate and no waxy slug would have any fun shooting against it. The .17, and the 22ppc to a greater extent, will do at 100 yards what the .22rimfire will do at 50 yards.



I'm sorry, should not have done it but just could not resist........http://emoticons4u.com/evil/teu42.gif

Mr. D
01-27-2008, 11:13 AM
It's much easier to put 5 shots through almost the same hole than it is to shoot the center out of 5 bulls with individual shots on each bull. When you move the gun from bull to bull, it seems to disrupt the gun more than just group shooting and has a tendency to change your point of impact. Good consistant tracking in the bags or rest is crucial, along with good ammo and watching the wind flags to timing when to shoot each shot. This is where all the variables come in to play.

Thanx for the education. I see your point!

I find my 17 HMR shoots a very good group and then it seems I get a flyer once in awhile that doubles the size of the group, but feels fine when I squeezed off. I also get a misfire about every 300 rounds! :confused: With my 223 Sako I can usually feel when I make a bad shot. It could be in the CZ rifle, but it feels like ammo because I'll get 5 to 7 shots in a great group and then one just takes off a little. If it doesn't heal, it's getting a post and action bedding after ground squirrel season! I just did that with my 223 Sako when it opened up its groups and it really made a difference. It seems super consistent now! I also shoot off Harris bipods because they are field guns. That might be part of the problem. ???

brad541thb
01-27-2008, 07:04 PM
No problem Mr. D. Score shooting is just a whole new experience than just group shooting. My gun I believe will shoot groups with some of the better guns according to what some people more experienced than I have told me. Why I can't seem to shoot better scores than I have or want to is beyond me. Maybe I just don't have the good ammo that my gun needs to score shoot, and a lot of if is me I'm sure shooting when I shouldn't have. Like I said, I'm probably more at fault than my gun. I like shooting groups as much as I like shooting score, and technically both have a direct correlation to each other. But on the other hand, score shooting needs to be practiced to shoot score shooting. The same would be true of practicing group shooting if your going to be shooting groups. Like one great benchrest score shooter told me by the name of Harry Deenan who has more world records and Hall of Fame points than anyone; a gun and ammo that shoots great groups has got to shoot consistantly great scores in all conditions, or your not going to be competitive. I didn't quote Harry on that statement, but I believe I have the idea right to what he was trying to tell me. In other words, he's not so concerned of how small of tiny holes a particular gun and ammo is shooting as he is for how good of score with lot of x's the combination is shooting. I know what he is saying after shooting a couple of matches up in St. Louis against guys like Joe Besche. I can't tell you in detail how accurate Joe's gun with a Douglas barrel is. Laser would be undermining his gun. :D Joe won the ARA A/Line shooter of the year just to give you and idea. I've seen his targets and how he can shoot the centers out of dang near everyone.

If you have't shot any score targets, I invite you to order some of the ARA, IR50/50, RBA, or USBR targets and get you some good ammo for whatever gun you care to use, along with some windflags and have at it. You may just get hooked. ;)

Brad

Wilbur
01-28-2008, 12:50 AM
Spread a 5 shot group out over 20 minutes and see how it works out.

Then...approach a score target one row at a time - or less.

Mr. D
01-28-2008, 03:57 AM
The worst gun in the world will give you a good 5 shoot group if you have enough ammo and you don't get blisters or your trigger finger! :D

Viper225
02-13-2008, 01:35 PM
Mr Robertson
Come play with us, you are not that far away. We shoot 100 yard Rim Fire Matches every month, and we have a 17 RF Class.

Bob Roach
Big Piney Sportsman's Club
Houston, Missouri
roachw@wildblue.net

garrisone
02-13-2008, 02:23 PM
Sounds as if some of you are looking for some one to a challenge. Let the games begin.mudd turtle.