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View Full Version : Whats your definition of BR.



JLG.
01-22-2008, 03:36 PM
My definition is getting the very best accuarcy out of my gun that I can get.
And you wont ever get that by setting limits on ammo or trying to level the playing field speed costs.Anything else is just plinking.I know ammo has skyrocketed but setting limits on equipment (ammo) is not the answer. I know I have a hard enough time shooting a x with good ammo I cant imagine having to shoot a x with lower grade ammo.That would be like running gas in a drag car!! Hold center Jerry

Mel Eck
01-22-2008, 04:20 PM
accuracy shooting 1 good target with good ammo is better than 10 with junk.

tim
01-22-2008, 04:37 PM
My definition is getting the very best accuarcy out of my gun that I can get.
And you wont ever get that by setting limits on ammo or trying to level the playing field speed costs.Anything else is just plinking.I know ammo has skyrocketed but setting limits on equipment (ammo) is not the answer. I know I have a hard enough time shooting a x with good ammo I cant imagine having to shoot a x with lower grade ammo.That would be like running gas in a drag car!! Hold center Jerry

As it is, as it shall ever be. Well said.

Carp
01-23-2008, 12:14 AM
Jerry,
It is not as simple as putting a gun on a bench and firing the thing. It is putting the best gun on the bench and firing the thing. And it is putting the thing on the bench and firing the thing to the best of technology so that the scores are the highest ever recorded. Benchrest is more than plinking. Plinking can be shot from the positions that CMP uses. Benchrest is putting the best gun, with the best ammo, with the best shooter, with the best score being scored. Anything less is just plinking. I'll repeat that statement in benchrest terminology. ANYTHING LESS THAN SHOOTING THE BEST SCORES EVER RECORDED IS JUST PLINKING. It is racing Formula One cars on any track. It is drag racing on any block with Top Fuellers. Not all of us can afford it all but we will sure run until the until the exotic fuel runs out on what we can afford. Most of us fall short of perfect scores but the pursuing of that perfection is the ultimate task.

Carp

Slammr
01-23-2008, 01:03 AM
To me (a total newbie), rimfire BR is watching, learning, shooting, and talking with my new friends and buddies.

While I am a competetive man, I realize it's going to take some time (not to mention some $) to BE competetive in this sport.

But so far, my favorite accomplishment has been getting my best friend and better half (they're both the same lady) to enjoy this sport as much as I do.

You'll not find a better set of people than those that are involved in our sport. I hope to help foster and continue this tradition.

Matt

Mooseyard
01-23-2008, 07:54 AM
I have from a very reliable source that the price of lead is already coming down. He predicted that we would start to see ammo prices dropping by this time next year. Please remember all of this stuff is cyclical. A few years back you couldn't afford to buy a 2x4 and a sheet of plywood, now those prices have come down. Just hold out a little bit, the prices will come around.

ruger Rob
01-23-2008, 02:52 PM
My definition is getting the very best accuarcy out of my gun that I can get.
And you wont ever get that by setting limits on ammo or trying to level the playing field speed costs.Anything else is just plinking.I know ammo has skyrocketed but setting limits on equipment (ammo) is not the answer. I know I have a hard enough time shooting a x with good ammo I cant imagine having to shoot a x with lower grade ammo.That would be like running gas in a drag car!! Hold center Jerry

JLG,
Your statement is true but it is also a very selfish way of looking at our discipline. If we want Rimfire benchrest to grow than we need matches that allow for more classes and cheaper cost. Our sport is not very entertaining to watch so when newbies come up to me at matches and start asking how much our rifles cost they think we are silly for spending so much money on a 22lr. They then ask if there is a class they can shoot there CZ or 10/22 in because they have a bunch of really good green tag ammo at home. JLG you give a guy like this a class that he can be competitive in, after two to three years of having fun he will be complaining about the price of tenex and how long he had to wait for his McMillan stock.

Rob

TangoTwo
01-23-2008, 03:26 PM
Rob,

I don't think selfish is the correct term. True would fit better, sometimes the truth hurts. Like any other hobby/sport/business, it costs to be at the top. Real Benchrest is just as Jerry said. Factory classes have been tried, nobody shows up. I don't beleive anyone is against a factory class or special ammo class, but don't require it for a whole match. You would risk losing those that have the big investment. For every new shooter you pickup with $5.00/box ammo you'll likely lose two that don't want to waste time with ammo not matched to their rifle. Why bother when you never know where the shot is going?

Benchrest as we know it is not a cheap hobby, probably never will be. We all would like to save some money, but we all want to be competitive. You got to keep up with the Jones' or be left in the dust.

Some clubs hold sucessful matches without sanction. Joe Haller is a good example. Should he sanction his matches in the future with the accompaning rules, his attendance is sure to suffer. What is the answer? I don't know. This sport is for those with a certain amount of disposable (known as pouring cash down a rat hole). Usually this means old guys with the kids gone and mortgage paid off. Just the way it is.

Ken Henderson

billyg
01-23-2008, 03:42 PM
Not to highjack your topic, but none of us probably starting off at some time in the distant past shooting BR but started as plinkers and casual target shooters and have advanced to full tilt BR.
To have BR continue and grow we must develop a class system which will grow the ranks with whatever they have to shoot and whatever ammo they can afford until they have the means and the bug to become full fledged BR shooters.
It is of no help for BR to adopt the attitude that only the best shooters using the best rifles with the best ammo need to attempt to get their feet wet in BR competition because we do not have time or room for these less well heeled folks. Talent will rise as will the equipment used
but not if they never ever fire the first shot in BR.

JLG.
01-23-2008, 04:07 PM
Not to highjack your topic, but none of us probably starting off at some time in the distant past shooting BR but started as plinkers and casual target shooters and have advanced to full tilt BR.
To have BR continue and grow we must develop a class system which will grow the ranks with whatever they have to shoot and whatever ammo they can afford until they have the means and the bug to become full fledged BR shooters.
It is of no help for BR to adopt the attitude that only the best shooters using the best rifles with the best ammo need to attempt to get their feet wet in BR competition because we do not have time or room for these less well heeled folks. Talent will rise as will the equipment used
but not if they never ever fire the first shot in BR.

I agree but dont limit everyone I am a match director and I personaly dont want anymore work for the match its at the point now I dont enjoy shooting one of my own matches for all the other work that needs to be done during the match.And when I started shooting br I was working in a saw mill for $4.75 a hour and federal 900 was $5 a box I was just married and trying to build a life for myself and wife.Many of times I couldnt afford the good ammo but that didnt stop me from shooting I went and got my tail whipped! But I was learning many of thing like gun setup.Not everyperson will stick with true benchrest shooting they will more than likely still shoot but not sanctioned matches they will shoot greentag and be happy but a true benchrest shooter will find a way to have the best even if it requires overtime,second job,or a part time job for the retired.I hate to sound harsh but the truth is the truth.I have introduced many people to benchrest, I let them shoot my gun and my ammo more stayed than left.BR takes a special kind of person to stick with it a person thats wants the best accuarcy and to be around people that thinks and likes the same kind of stuff as himself.I will turn no shooters away from my matches everyone is welcomed to shoot but I will not set limits on ammo you shoot what you bring and if you cant or wont shoot the good stuff thats totally your choice but I will bet you still will have a good time.Jerry

ruger Rob
01-24-2008, 03:25 PM
JLG, & KEN,

I realize what you are saying is the truth, but not having enough beginning level classes is are true problem. Last year I made our local matches registered with the RBA, I lost more local shooters (guys with factory equipment) than I gained TRUE BR shooters. I think the Fundamental problem with the current rimfire benchrest organizations is not having enough classes. I am not saying to put a ammo cap on every one, but maybe have a class that does. Ken from running matches I can say that nobody likes waiting around, we all want to shoot. We need to find a way to run our matches so we can shoot more than one class at a time. There will always be guys who will do anything for br , I would like to see more of them.

Rob

Gary Lemons
01-24-2008, 03:39 PM
Rob,
A factory class was tried last year in IR5050. It could be shot during along side other classes if benches were available. I had a total of three shooters shoot one card apiece the entire year. None of the other clubs in this area had the first shooter show up. The bottom line is that entry level factory gun shooters do not show up for sanctioned matches. A seperate organization may be a better idea than trying to incorporate into the present games.

Billyg,
The match directors already have enough to do during a match keeping up with the stuff required of us now. Additional classes would only add to that workload. Are you willing to run the matches or go out and find the additional help for the match directors?

Jerry.....right on!

Gary

TangoTwo
01-24-2008, 09:11 PM
Rob,

I know some clubs will run a sub-class within the frameworks of existing rules. They shoot with everyone else and are eligible for the same prizes as the "big" guns. However they also compete within the sub-class with others of like equipment. This seems to work at these ranges. All shooters pay the entry fees and are counted for list points ect. No extra time needed only need to figure one more catagory for prizes.

We have an informal league on Wed. am at Camillus. Have had it for years. Shoot an IR50/50 target. A couple years ago I had the bright idea to have an unlimited RBA match once a month on Wed. am. Thought was to introduce the guys that had never shot a sanctioned match to the big time. Hoped to improve our Sat 50/50 match attendance and convert the Wed. guys to Sat. as well. The attendance for the Wed. matches went from about 15 shooters to about 6 on RBA day. Some guys just don't want to shoot sanctioned matches.

Don't think there have never been attempts to get new shooters. I once suggested a class system. About given up on that. How many classes can you have with 10 or fewer shooters at a match? What does a win mean when you get it by default or beat one other guy in your class? I don't have the answer, don't beleive anybody does. If you come up with something that works, let us all know.

Ken

ruger Rob
01-25-2008, 02:47 PM
Thanks for your response Ken. I will consider running some unofficial sub classes this year and see how it pans out. I realize that most of you guys are committed to rimfire and have tried different things in the past. I am relatively young for this sport at 31, and some times have the attitude that if something doesn’t work keep trying until it does.

thanks Rob

Bud
01-25-2008, 06:51 PM
The only way to grow, is to have participation for all. When I run BR matches at our club there are class's for most all levels. I use the class's that are found on RFC.

Joe Haller
01-25-2008, 07:33 PM
". . . if something doesn’t work, keep trying until it does".

That's what I've been doing for 50 years in this game. Maybe some of you guys would not believe me, but I think I am getting close.

In the late 1950's our turkey shoots developed into team matches with hunting rifles. By the 1970s, clubs in our three county area had a local centerfire benchrest program going: With tournaments, and league competition for teams. We used local rules with three rifle classes that appealed to our local shooters.

A few of us decided it would be great idea to affiliate with NBRSA. Yea, GREAT: Our match attendance dropped from 50 shooters to 7 or 8. BUT: We had moving backers, and were running "Sanctioned" matches. And: When we wanted to shoot at another club we drove from 300 to 600 miles. When we got there, we could shoot in a sanctioned match.

Centerfire BR is dead in this area now. Been dead for more than 20 years. Ten years ago I had a hunch that rimfire BR could be fun. I gathering rules and targets from all the National Associations. Then, I thought: "Do one of these and it's Déjà vu all over again".

I rewrote rules in a way that, from past experience I felt should attract new shooters. It's working pretty well for us here in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, down in Texas, at Bud's club in Pennsylvania, in Rio de Janeiro, and a few other places, including Rimfire Central, where we have about 50 shooters in the winter and 100 in the summer, doing "On-Line" Matches.

If one of the National Associations adopted "Shooter Friendly" rules, do you suppose that association would grow?

Joe Haller

buckeyeair
01-25-2008, 08:07 PM
". . . if something doesn’t work, keep trying until it does".......
.......If one of the National Associations adopted "Shooter Friendly" rules, do you suppose that association would grow?

Joe Haller
Joe;
I hear ya and would like to think that you are right, as we shoot unsanctioned BR at our local club as well, although not as well attended as your matches,,but does not USBR try to attract new shooters with some what novice friendly classes and they appear to have pretty slim numbers around the country. There has to be an answer somewhere as to an effective method for attracting new shooters to benchrest in a somewhat basic class and then helping those that want to persue it further into 'Full fledged' bench rest shooters so to speak.--maybe the way it is now with the unsanctioned matches around the country for the begginers is the answer and some of them will be 'Happy' shooting unsanctioned and others will progress to Sanctioned matches and all the expense that goes with it....Just a few thoughts............
glenn (buckeyeair)

billyg
01-25-2008, 09:26 PM
Hey Gary,
How goes it?
I agree MDs get the short end of the stick and do most of the work but if we don't come up with some plan to add shooters we will be shooting with a lot smaller crowd than we do today. Look at the avg. age and lack of new shooters.
I think we had 3 new ones in our area of ranges and I think only 1 was under age 50. New ranges open and we lose shooters from the old ones and are not replaced.
I grant you MDs need more help and but 60-70 year olds can only give so much and still shoot. We got to get younger shooters, maybe 3 classes New, 239 and less class,and Master class as now. Yeah I would help but recruiting from new shooters would be good idea too.
Let the newbies mix in with vets, we would rarely have newbies in all 3 guns and would probably never take over 2 relays in each gun. Extra work, yeah, an imposition, yeah.
But the ranges we have are seemingly on the brink of ending because MDs and helpers are lacking. I was lucky having you,Kent,Cliff and Ben running the show but what happens when you guys have had enough. We can attract new shooters with classes the NRA,PMA,NMSS,IHMSA etc are adding shooters and some are getting into helping learn to run matches. I just don;t think our sport can maintain an attitude of only the best need apply and only the best can win and the rest of the rifle shooters can take their 10/22 amd plink.

Gary Lemons
01-25-2008, 10:10 PM
Bill,
Maybe you can explain why no one showed up for the IR5050 factory class. There was the opportunity to prove by participation that other classes were needed in the sanctioned matches. And, BTW, I was the one who proposed it at the Kettlefoot Nationals meeting. I'm all for getting more shooters....but they have to show up and shoot.

Joe has a great program that seems to be working in different parts of the country. I would think if like minded shooters got together and approached their clubs with a plan, Joe's program might just work in other areas. Then as Glenn commented, those interested in taking their shooting to another level could go on to the present games....just as many of us did when we participated in Joe's email matches.

I really don't think equipment is the hindrance to more shooters getting involved in today's games. It appears to be more of a mindset. Kent, myself, and about 20 other shooters I know started out with some factory rifle in IR and RBA before upgrading equipment. Getting beat didn't stop us from continuing with the sport, nor would it anyone else wanting to increase their shooting abilities.

Instead of folks just talking about what others should do, why don't those folks get involved by making a program happen?

Bill, I'll make you a deal. If you organize a program, set the rules, and promote it, I'll commit myself and one other helper right now to helping you run the matches. And if you'll come help me, I'll work out a schedule for Wilderness too.

Gary

Kent Owens
01-25-2008, 10:39 PM
Gary,
It was FUN when we started out, wasn't it, even with the factory rifles. I'll say this, we had a steep hill to climb shooting with the folks we started out with, and though the names have changed, it's just as tough or tougher than it was then. That's why I liked it so much. Shooting with Steve Arnold, Mack Douglas, Lamon Loggins, Steve Lawson, and several others was a good experience. Lamon is the best "hard wind" shooter I've ever seen. I enjoyed the challenge, and I'm sure you did too but its' a fact some folks just don't like to lose, they want to start out winning right away. That don't happen much in this sport, but on a dead air day it can happen if a newbie has a capable rifle and ammo. I still remember the sober(big eyed) look you gave me some where about the end of our second match, when I told you we were losing now, but we'd be winning next season. I do think we both won a few matches the second year, after changing all the equipment:)

Gary Lemons
01-25-2008, 10:58 PM
Kent,
Yeah it was fun and it still is fun. You're only get as good as your best competition and we had it.... and still do. I don't discount anyone on the line where we shoot 'cause any one of them can take advantage of a shooter's mistake and walk away with the win. I hope the challenge never goes away.

That's one reason I'm excited about the airgun program. It's another challenge that I don't have any experience in, but I'm sure not going to be overly concerned with what anyone else has for equipment until I get the basics down. It's going to be learning curve just like we went through in rimfire.

It would be interesting to see if an "outlaw" organization would bring out shooters. It just won't work trying to integrate into the present games.

Gary

Fred K
01-26-2008, 09:25 AM
Kent
Where is our friend Steve Lawson? Have not seen or heard about him in two or three years.
Fred K

Kent Owens
01-26-2008, 02:25 PM
Fred,
I haven't seen Steve for a couple of years. He decided to stop shooting and use his time in some other way. I sure do miss him, because not only was he a great shooter, he was a great guy as well. Lot's of good folks in rimfire BR and Steve was one of the best. I hope he's doing well.

Fred K
01-26-2008, 02:39 PM
I agree Kent !!!
Fred K