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Darryl Duke
01-15-2008, 10:57 AM
I recently purchased a used 6ppc and took it out for the first time yesterday. The brass was clean when I started and after four reloads it started to stick when I tried to pull the bolt back, but it was no problem to lift the bolt. The chamber is .262 and the loaded rounds mike .260 Load was 29 gr N133 CCI BR4 primer and Bruno "00" fb .001 off the lands. Is this normal? I have cleaned them with a little 0000 steel wool to knock the residue off but haven't fired it yet. This is my first ppc and any info would be appreciated. And the chamber was also clean.

crb
01-15-2008, 11:38 AM
You will need to give us some info on your reloading procedure.

Darryl Duke
01-15-2008, 11:46 AM
Sorry, I didn't think about that. I'm using an arbor press, Wilson neck sizer with a .259 bushing. Wilson micro seater. Brass oal is 1.491-1.495. The gun was built by Gary OCock.

crb
01-15-2008, 11:54 AM
You should bump the shoulders back a thou or so. When only sizing the neck the cases eventually get a little sticky on extraction.

Darryl Duke
01-15-2008, 12:31 PM
Thanks I'll give it a try. I'm dying to go shoot it again but it's a cruddy day today. It does shoot fairly well, 10 group agg of .28 I have no idea how many rounds have been run through it, you know how that goes when someone is selling a used gun.

ScottD
01-15-2008, 12:39 PM
If the bolt opening is fine but sticks at the top of the throw, it is usually a sign that the brass is too large at the web or just old brass.

you have two choices - full length resize....which is better in my opinion than neck size only anyway, or use new brass.

I will assume the brass you are using came with the rifle and is used. The condition you describe is usually described as a "click" at the top of the bolt throw. It won't hurt anything - its just a PITA. If the brass is old enough, even full length resizing won't fix it - eventually you just have to get new brass.

try full length resizing it first, if that doesn't do it - make some new brass and keep full length resizing from now on.

Scott

Wayne Campbell
01-15-2008, 01:21 PM
properly fitted full length sizing die for the chamber that is in that rifle.

JerrySharrett
01-15-2008, 01:35 PM
I recently purchased a used 6ppc and took it out for the first time yesterday. The brass was clean when I started and after four reloads it started to stick when I tried to pull the bolt back, but it was no problem to lift the bolt. The chamber is .262 and the loaded rounds mike .260 Load was 29 gr N133 CCI BR4 primer and Bruno "00" fb .001 off the lands. Is this normal? I have cleaned them with a little 0000 steel wool to knock the residue off but haven't fired it yet. This is my first ppc and any info would be appreciated. And the chamber was also clean.
If you have any serious PPC shooters around you, borrow a Harrell #2 or Harrell #3 full length die.You can send some fired brass to them and they can determine which die you need (about $65). Or, take the gun to a BR gunsmith who makes custom f/l dies (about $150 or so).

I'm with the others, you need a proper f/l die. Your 29g V133 load is not real hot, as some shoot, but it is hot enough to require full length sizing. Full length sizing is a good habit to get into on the PPC.

A few years ago everyone used a Wilson neck die then occasionally crammed the cases into something like a Forester small base die. Eventually most everyone found out, get a good f/l die for your chamber and stay with it.

In the meantime lube the cases with a very slight film of Imperial wax or a good case lube. Very slight. This is not a permanent fix but Wednesday is supposed to be some warmer, then it turns cold again.

Darryl Duke
01-15-2008, 01:44 PM
The gun did come with a f/l die. It doesn't have any markings on it though. I put a case in the press and ran it all the way up and started screwing the die in till it made contact. Wound up screwing the die in till it almost touched the ram and then the bolt closed easily. I thought just neck sizing would do it, well you live and learn. I'll try to make it out tomorrow and see how she does. Thanks for all the help everyone...

Nader
01-15-2008, 04:25 PM
Darryl,
The proper way to set up your bump die is to disassemble the bolt,then chamber some big tight cases with just the bolt body, you will feel how tight they are! Run a case through your backed off(.020 or so) FL die then chamber it again.How does it feel? Keep screwing the die down and trying the case in the chamber until the bolt handle drops with just a very slight resistance from the case.Thats where you want to be.
I like to set up my FL die with about .020 of Skip Otto's shims(sinclairs has them),that way the lock ring is locked down and all you do is add or subtract shims to make your adjustments.
Too much headspace is bad for accuracy and way too much headspace will blow primers.
Joel

Wilbur
01-15-2008, 05:38 PM
Not knowing more than "the bolt closes easily" is extremely dangerous. You may have pushed the shoulder back too far getting to the tight spot. Check the base to shoulder measurement of an unsized case and compare it to the sized case. With brass fired several times, two or three thousandths difference is starting to be too much.

Too much on the shoulder can cause a case separation and that ain't ever good.

crb
01-15-2008, 05:42 PM
Here's how I bump back the shoulders. I use a Harrells FL die and the cool little bushing they include with the sizing die [ the use thereof I had to have explained to me :o ]

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n260/raayjayy/Harrellsbushwithcaseandcalipers.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n260/raayjayy/harrellsbush.jpg

JerrySharrett
01-15-2008, 08:07 PM
Here's how I bump back the shoulders. I use a Harrells FL die and the cool little bushing they include with the sizing die [ the use thereof I had to have explained to me :o ]

[/IMG]

Many folks say to use the shoulder gage to bump with. I still think the best way is what Joel described above, go by the feel of a stripped bolt. In any instance have a way to measure the amount of bump, like Wilbur says....not to do so could be dangerous.

Nader
01-15-2008, 08:23 PM
Darryl, Yes ,Wilbur and crb are correct,you should also measure the amount of bump ,I use a barrel stub chamber gage made by my gunsmith.The Harrells bushing works as does the Wilson chamber gage. Ideally a .001 bump on the shoulder is sufficient.I am assuming we are talking about new brass made for and fired in your chamber three or four times. If the brass is work hardened or from another gun the "feel" method dosn't work too well .Get new dedicated brass for your gun.Shoot it a couple of times,measure with bump gage,set up die with the feel method then measure again,you should find a .0005 to .001 bump. The reason I like the feel method is because in this game you gotta feel a lot of things,shoulder bump,bullet seating depth,bolt closure,triggers,wind on the back of your neck,etc.
Joel

Roy in NC
01-15-2008, 08:28 PM
Do you see any ridges around the case? Sounds like you might have a ring in the chamber.

FWIW,

Darryl Duke
01-16-2008, 07:42 AM
Ray, thanks for the pics, I also have a bushing just like that but didn't know what it was for. I assume it works like my bullet comparator does. I need to figure out how to upload some pics so ya'll can look at this stuff.

Roy, there are shiny rings 3/8 of an inch up from the base after they come out of the f/l die where it's sizing the web.

Darryl Duke
01-16-2008, 08:19 AM
Here is the die and bushing that came with the gun and a pic of a couple of sized cases showing the rings above the web.

Darryl Duke
01-16-2008, 08:29 AM
Pics didn't attach the first time.

J Conley
01-16-2008, 08:47 AM
That’s a Harrell’s die. It should have a number on the bottom. Is it a 2 or 3?

ScottD
01-16-2008, 08:55 AM
Darryl

You got everything you need to make it work now. All you need is a mentor or just someone that can meet you at the range and spend a hour with you to show you how it all works.

Its really easy once you do it once.

Or go shoot in a match - take all your stuff with you. By the time the match is over, you be an expert (or about as expert as any of the rest of us think we are).

Scott

Darryl Duke
01-16-2008, 09:04 AM
J, it has a 1 on the bottom.

Nader
01-16-2008, 09:07 AM
Darryl,
Maybe the photos are decieving but those case necks look long. did you measure and check that. 1.495----1.505?
Joel

Darryl Duke
01-16-2008, 09:23 AM
This is one of the longest ones they go all the way down to 1.491

Nader
01-16-2008, 09:32 AM
Darryl, that length is fine, sorry for hitting the panic button. have fun,
Joel

Boyd Allen
01-16-2008, 09:35 AM
So, to review, you screw the top off of the FL die and insert the Wilson bushing that you have been using in your neck die. Take a fired case and use a punch and some sort of base under the case that supports the case, and has room for the primer to fall out, and deprime the case. (This is so that any small amount of primer cratering or protrusion will not effect your "before" measurement.) Put the brass piece that you have referred to as a bushing, but which is in fact a gage, over the neck of the case, making sure that the flat end is up and that the case neck does not stick out past its end. Measure the overall length of the case and gage with a dial caliper that measures in .001" (no plastic calipers allowed) and write the number down. Put the die in the press so that it is .020 or so above the shell holder, with the ram in its uppermost position. Lube the case. Never put a lubed case in your chamber. Some of the case lubes are hard to get to completely remove without a solvent, and you don't want lubrication in the chamber for a full pressure load. Adjust the die down in small amounts, sizing and gauging after each adjustment until you get a measurement that is .001 smaller than your first one. Note the position relative to the shell holder so that if you have to adjust the die again that you can shorten the process ( not start so high).

A note to all of you "feel" folks, if his die is too big at the back, adjusting by feel will push the shoulder too far back, and I am surprised that this is so hard for so many to understand.

Two more tips- (actually one tip, and one afterthought)
Make sure that your decapping stem is not too far down in the die. Once, I put in a replacement that was a little longer than the one it replaced and managed to ruin a few old cases by hitting the end of the threaded part on the inside of the case. The bottoms of their primer pockets were deformed so that a primer could not be seated flush with the case head.

Use a case that has been fired at least three times to set up your die. They take a few firings to reach their maximum "headspace", and it from that, that they should be bumped back.

crb
01-16-2008, 10:00 AM
Ray, thanks for the pics, I also have a bushing just like that but didn't know what it was for. .

I think it is a test. If you figure it out on your own you get an A+ 100! I flunked = 0 :p

Darryl Duke
01-16-2008, 10:05 AM
Thanks Boyd, I'll step out the back door and "unload" a couple cases. It's nice to live where you can do that.

crb
01-16-2008, 10:09 AM
. Adjsut the die down in small amounts, sizing and gageing after each adjustment until you get a measurement that is .001 smaller than your first one..

When I am adjusting the die I use a different case after each die adjustment. Once I have the die correctly set and have sized several cases to my satisfaction I go back and redo the cases that were used early in the process and are still a bit long.

Sitting here thinking about it I guess it might be smart to remove the neck bushing when adjusting the sizing die to get the .001 shoulder bump. Once you get the shoulder bump set you could put the neck bushing back in and do all the cases.

Darryl Duke
01-16-2008, 11:02 AM
Fired cases miked 1.544. Took the bushing out and set the die till I got 1.543 Bolt closed just fine. I had been bumping the shoulders back too far. Now I have to fire the rest of the cases I set back too far, maybe at a slightly reduced rate to save a little powder. I do have 50 .220 Russians that have yet to be formed but my neck turning stuff probably is not accurate enough to turn to these specs. It's a forester setup I use on my factory stuff just to clean them up a little. It leaves tiny ridges cause the cutter is not truly 90° to the mandrel. Thanks to everyone for all the info it's great to have a site like this to go to.

JerrySharrett
01-16-2008, 03:32 PM
Fired cases miked 1.544. Took the bushing out and set the die till I got 1.543 Bolt closed just fine. I had been bumping the shoulders back too far. Now I have to fire the rest of the cases I set back too far, maybe at a slightly reduced rate to save a little powder. I do have 50 .220 Russians that have yet to be formed but my neck turning stuff probably is not accurate enough to turn to these specs. It's a forester setup I use on my factory stuff just to clean them up a little. It leaves tiny ridges cause the cutter is not truly 90° to the mandrel. Thanks to everyone for all the info it's great to have a site like this to go to.
Don't just reduce the load to refireform the brass you set the shoulders back too far. If you set the shoulders back over about 0.003-0.004 and just add powder and and a bullet the cases can stretch just above the web area and shorten the case life as well as possibly causing case head separation which can be dangerous.

Use a medium load and seat the bullets to where you have a hard jam into the rifling. This will hold the case head firmly against the bolt face and bring the shoulder back in place.

JerrySharrett
01-16-2008, 04:04 PM
A note to all of you "feel" folks, if his die is too big at the back, adjusting by feel will push the shoulder too far back, and I am surprised that this is so hard for so many to understand.


Lets discuss this for a moment.

Headspace/head space, notice the space part. Little Daniel Webster says space, generally, as "distance of place".

Used as noun the definition of headspace, as it pertains to cartridge type firearms is simply "the numerical distance between the face of the bolt and the base of the cartridge with the cartridge fully seated in the chamber".

Used as a verb, headspace. is holding a proper distance between a boltface or breech face and the cartridge base.

Some cartridges, such as straight walled cases like the 45ACP, 38 Super, 10MM Automatic, etc., headspace off the cartridge rim since there is no other place to restrict the cartridge case in the chamber.

Some cartridges,. such as rimmed design like 44 Rem Mag, 38 Spl, 30/30 Winchester. normally headspace off the rim. If there is any shoulder at all, like the 30/30, the shoulder makes a more precise fit than the cartridge rim.

Some cartridges, such as belted magnums, like 375 Holland and Holland, 300 Winchester magnum, etc., can headspace off the case base belt. Here again, it here is a significant shoulder it is better to use the shoulder rather than the belt.

The point here is, anything that sufficiently holds the cartridge base against the bolt face will get the job done safely. Us "feeley" guys simply use the first point of resistance that holds the case base against the bolt face regardless whether it is the shoulder, or case body taper. This does not HAVE to be the cartridge case shoulder. (As above, the positioning method can also be the jammed bullet)

I am not advocating doing anything stupid or dangerous, just using common sense.

Darryl Duke
01-16-2008, 04:40 PM
I understand Jerry, I just got off the phone with my dad and he told verbatim the same thing.