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View Full Version : Ammo Costs, etc.. is it time?????



John E. Rupert
01-14-2008, 11:01 AM
With the new HIGH costs of ammo, maybe it is now time to settle down and shoot only one discipline??? Some of us older people (shooters) on a fixed income, are facing the challenge of all these new costs. My wife and I both shoot and two years ago we were faced with the decision to shoot only one discipline. Now we're faced with higher costs yet. What are some of you fellow shooters going to do to off set these costs????

JLG.
01-14-2008, 12:33 PM
John I hear ya buddy Im not going to shoot any sighters or warm the gun up anymore that away I can get 2 targets from one box of shells:D No really this ammo is crazy lapua,rws,really need to get in the ball game again to help with the cost.It would be nice for winchester to get back into it again they used to make match ammo many years ago.Imjust going to shoot less.Jerry

Rich In Kansas
01-14-2008, 01:09 PM
I've been thinking about the same subject for some time. Now I'm known to change my mind more than a politician, but I have a half case of pretty good Master left. I have a bunch of this and that Midas that never quite measured up (old gold box stuff from the nineties). I been using it in three position. When that is all gone I'm thinking of switching to Wolf ME. It can be pretty good but not top level. Course it's going up in price too. May not be competitive but would allow me to shoot with my friends. Will see how I feel and how thick my wallet is when My Master is gone. I'm retired also.

Bob Pekaar
01-14-2008, 01:12 PM
I was fortunate to accumulate enough ammo to last me for years- this was before the price increase. I shot 28 matches last year from western Arkansas to northern VA. Fuel, now, is a major factor. I'll cut back on the number of matches I shoot and probably do just regionals and states and stick to just one discipline. I don't think that cutting back on sighters and warming up will significantly effect your budget unless your down to a few bricks. Once my ammo is gone, I'm going to downgrade the quality of the ammo I shoot and just have fun.
Bob Pekaar

Ernie
01-14-2008, 01:40 PM
Makes shootin a AIRGUN looking more interesting all the time. No lot sorting "to speak of" , not really much of a back-stop needed, no nosie for people to complain of. Plus you REALLY have to know what wind-flags are lying about................cheap ammo is endless

crb
01-14-2008, 02:12 PM
I think the key is fewer bulls on the target. I am going to try and put on a few matches this year and I am planning on using the IBS centerfire score targets. Shoot 5 targets at 50yds and 5 at 100yds. 50 score rounds plus sighters. 2 boxes should do the whole match.

steve
01-14-2008, 02:30 PM
It is pretty tough. For the last 2 years I have taken a summer job to pay for shooting. The gas is really getting to be a killer. My truck gets good mileage but it still costs 10.00/hr to run it. My range is 1 hour from the house and I will tell you that I sure do not pratice anywhere near as much as I need to.
I am also a match director and have told the club that I will only attend club meetings if I am required to. I would love to do more but the 500.00/mo Exxon bill is getting real old.

tim
01-14-2008, 03:23 PM
new wife?

sailor
01-14-2008, 04:17 PM
I wonder if I could make me a cart to carry behind my motorcycle that would hold all the gear?

Fiddler
01-14-2008, 06:41 PM
good question, what do you do with rising cost???? My Son just started College, Ammo has risen at a very fast rate and Gas prices are up also. Cut back, stay local and attend only State, Regional and Nationals if they are close enough. Oh, keep working till I drop! Maybe I'll hit the lotto, who knows!

Colt.45
01-14-2008, 07:04 PM
Yup,the prices to shoot and get to somewhere to shoot are getting worse all the time.Now i know there are some out there to whom the costs are not a deterrant and i'm happy for them but....they may one day find themselves shooting alone? My plan for this year is to try and shoot enough matches to qualify for the a-line and agg. line and hope that Hawk Hill shoots after all, as it is closer.Also the only ammo i will be using will be SK Standard.I had planned to get the good Eley this year but after seeing thier price increases they can kiss my butt. I realize i will have no chance against the guys that cough up the money for the top ammo but i reckon that is how it will be.At least maybe i can shoot. I really think being retired would not change much,i work for the state of Missouri in the Dept. of Corrections and we are the lowest paid corrections staff in the country also Missouri's teachers just made the list as lowest paid in the country.....ya listening Gov.Blunt?
Sorry for the rant,this weather just depresses me!
Colt.45

Renegade
01-14-2008, 08:10 PM
Sailor,
If you come up with a rig to haul your gear behind the motorcycle, please post pics!

I have to travel 2.5-3.5 hrs to every match I shoot, other than ours. Between gas, ammo, and match fees, it's over $150 for every match. I don't plan on shooting nearly as much as I did last year unless gas and ammo prices drop...imagine that:rolleyes:
Todd

Carp
01-14-2008, 08:14 PM
Just wait till the $4.00 per gallon gas comes this summer....ammo will sound cheap. Other than that, one needs to pick their favorite hobby and do that. If it be shooting competitively, then buy the expensive ammo. If it be driving an antique muscle car to all the car shows, buy the expensive gas. If it be whatever you can dream of, they are all getting too expensive.

Carp

max456
01-14-2008, 08:43 PM
hey guys
we made up our benchrest targets with only three sighters and 20 bulls for record.I am retired also and it takes all of my pension to pay for my insurance and I am still 11 years away from S.S..

But if it will make any of you feel better,I read on the worldnetdaily.com today that our great noble senators and congressmen just voted theirselves a $4000 raise.It was the second one in the last seven months if I remember right? You know they surely deserve it to! NOT!

jcwit
01-14-2008, 09:17 PM
I'm going to cut back on the practice ammo I buy. I drive approx. 1 hr to get to the range where I shoot. I've solved the gas problem with a small car that gets 40-50 MPG. Rear seat folds down and gives me enough room to put everything. To my way of thinking life is way to short not to enjoy.

Joe Haller
01-14-2008, 10:20 PM
We have 24 "regular" rimfire shooters in our club. They all live here in Chippewa County, in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. The drive to the range is pretty short for all of us. We also have about 8 shooters that come UP from Lower Michigan, and 3 or 4 from the Western U.P. and Wisconsin. ONE from Canada. I guess the key to our success is that our core shooters live close, which means the gas costs less than the ammo.

But: We also put a dollar cap on the cost of the ammo, in two of the four classes we run. Because of this, I do not see the increase in ammo or gas prices to be a problem for us. In fact, I am confident we will see an increase in our match attendance this year.

I feel it would be better for our club to run matches under the sanction of a National Association. That's not going to happen, until one of them comes up with a set of rules that work better than what we have now: Guess you can call us "Outlaws", but I prefer the word "Maverick".

Joe Haller (Mr. Frosty)

Todd
01-14-2008, 10:52 PM
Joe - just curious - what are the $ limits on the ammo for your matches and with all the different prices from different dealers, how do you go about establishing those limits. Do you change the limits from year to year to keep pace with inflation etc?

With Eley black box pushing a thousand bucks a case I've been wondering about this new Eley Club EPS ammo. Has anyone tried it?

Joe Haller
01-15-2008, 12:39 AM
We worked out the ammo prices in a voting Poll over in RFC's Match Section. About 50 shooters voted in the polls, so we have what I think most of the shooters could live with.

No limit on ammo prices was set in the Unlimited or Semi-Auto Classes.

The two classes we set ammo limits on were:
Factory Sporter: $7.00 per box of 50 or $70.00 per brick of 500.
(Allows Wolf Match Target, SK Match and Eley Club Orange Box).
and
Vintage Smallbore: $11.00 per box of 50 or $110.00 per brick of 500.
(Cuts out Eley Red Box, Lapua Midas and RWS R50).
Discontinued match grade ammunition is considered to be in the same price range as similar ammunition in current production. (No Federal 1000 A or B).

A word of explanation on the new "Vintage Smallbore Class". We set up this class because we were losing a lot of 40X and 52 shooters in our Unlimited class. This new class is for the old wood stock NRA Smallbore rifles without barrel tuners or benchrest style stock. With all the thousands of these rifles being sold by CMP, there NEEDS to be a class for them in rimfire benchrest. We opened our first match to this class at our local club last October. This class is going to be popular UP here, and in RFC's On-Line Matches too. At one time we had as many as 140 shooters in our local indoor smallbore leagues. Where did all those rifles go? Locked away in gun safes, everyone.

With the cost of ammunition rising: We will adjust prices in the future.
To keep pace with inflation, we agreed on the prices listed on Champions Shooters Supply's website. Go here:
http://www.championshooters.com/index-ssl.html
Then select "Ammunition on the left side of the front page.

To keep it simple, the prices, as listed on Champion Shooters Supply are before shipping or taxes. If and when the price goes above $7.00 for Factory Sporter or $11.00 for Vintage Smallbore, we will raise the maximum price to the next higher dollar. If someone has to pay more than Champion Shooters Supply maximum, that is allowed.

Todd: I have a couple of cases of Eley Club (Orange Box). Three of our shooters who have tried it in the Factory Sporter and Vintage Smallbore classes say it works for them. Have not tried it myself yet in any of my Unlimited Class rifles.

Joe :-)

Viper225
01-15-2008, 09:23 AM
We have adopted Joe Haller's Rules at our Sportsman's Club also. We made a couple changes, Semi-Automatic 22 Class has the same ammunition cost ceiling as Sporter Class. We also added a 17 RF Class. We have also adjusted the Cost Ceiling for 2008 to $7 a Box of 50 for Sporter and Semi-Automatic Classes.
At our last match I did not catch what Sigman was shooting for ammunition, however everyone else was shooting Wolf Match Target.
I somehow missed Joe's ammunition ceiling pole at RFC. We arrived at $7 independantly. As Wolf MT got hard to come up with, our local dealers started getting Wolf Match Extra. The Current Price of Wolf ME at Champion Shooters is $6.40. To try and Keep Wolf ME in the game for 2008, we felt $7 would cover any additional price increases.
We shoot 100 yard RF Bench Rest on a Bulls Eye Target developed by Tom Grace one of our local shooters, and a member here.
Most of our shooters do not make any big matches. The guys with Savage Targets and CZ Varmints have a good time along with the guy with an Anschutz 54. I think sometimes we all forget that we started shooting to have a good time. Back when I was much younger I was shooting IPSC. This is before progressive reloaders. I was in some stage of casting bullets, reloading or shooting almost 7 days a week. This got to be a second job, and not a hobby. I came to the realization at some point that someone with more money, and better eyes and reflexes would always be their. Today, I do not intend to make another shooting sport into a job, so I might as well shoot to have a good time. I can have a perfectly good time Chooting Club Extra, Target Rifle, Wolf MT, Wolf ME, or the SK equivilents of the Wolf.
Just my 2 Cents
Thanks Again Joe for your Match Rules. Maby more Clubs will adopt an ammunition Cost Ceiling for some classes. This would go a long way to keep the lower income, and retired shooters in the game. It would also help to attract new shooters.
With our local crowd, I do not think we would have any big complaints if we shot all Classes with Wolf Match Target. The only issue would be keeping a case on hand for shooters having a problem finding it at the Gun Shop. Our local Gun Shop is starting to get MT back in stock. Infact the price is still down on it. Chucks Gun Shop in Pomona Missouri had it for $37 last week.

Good Shooting

Bob

Viper225
01-15-2008, 09:36 AM
Todd
I have a brick of Club Extra EPS on order from Champion Shooters. In my limited testing I have found that Eley Match EPS shoots a little better than Eley Target Rifle. The Club Extra EPS is rated in between in accuracy by Eley.
I just did a Mid Priced Match Ammo comparison. I was compairing Wolf MT, Wolf ME, and SK Match Rifle. I also had a box of Eley Target Rifle on hand. I shoot groups with Eley Match EPS as an Accuracy Bench Mark.
As expected the Eley Match EPS shot the best. A big surprise was that Eley Target Rifle out shoot the Wolf. Atleast this box did.
Also as expected Wolf Match Extra out shot Wolf Match Target by just a little. The SK Match Rifle was at the bottom of the rating. This test was with 1 box of each in one rifle.
With both boxes of Eley doing so well, I thought I had better try the test again with Club Extra EPS with the EPS Bullet.
I will need to get some additional Eley Match EPS and Target Rifle for the nest round of testing.

Bob

JHB
01-15-2008, 10:04 AM
You can still buy lapua master from Charlie Scott for less than $7.00 a box.
He has a add in the classifieds

Al Hadfield
01-15-2008, 10:06 AM
Hi All,

Here is what Penny and I have done to cut expenses, we started this last season.

No practice other than check out the guns at the start of the season.

No more multiple test lots. I rely on a friend to let me know what is good for his guns, what is good for him usually works fine for us. Iím lucky to have such a friend.

Warm up the gun with less expensive ammo.

No more purchasing ammo by the case, just a few bricks at a time.

No more ďhigh endĒ ammo.

A perfect solution? No. Remember, we are supposed to be having fun at this game. Itís no fun when every time you send a shot down range you cringe at the $ flying away. As to gas, we combine as many errands as possible into each trip. I really feel bad for you folks who want to attend a lot of matches, some of which involve long drives. The cost of gas can be worse than the ammo cost.

Al

pacecil
01-15-2008, 10:47 AM
With SK Standard Plus I'm getting average group size of .22. There will be groups from .1's to .3's in there.
With Eley Tenex my average will be about .20 and there will also be groups in the .1's and .3's.
Is the roughly $700 more a case for Eley worth the approx .02 difference?

ThaiBoxer
01-15-2008, 10:54 AM
Those are excellent average groups sizes from SK Std +.

Beau
01-15-2008, 11:00 AM
Expensive Eley or Lapua is not worth the difference over SK Standard or Wolf or whatever until you enter competition. I don't believe anyone shoots more expensive ammo just for the heck of it. If lower end ammo could consistently compete it would be used consistently.

varminthunter1
01-15-2008, 11:16 AM
I used to piss and moan about the rising cost of gas, health care, ammo ect. It is inevitable. We have very little control over these things. The trick is not to let it get to you. Rise above all the BS. You are all benchrest shooters, and are among the finest people in this great country. Enjoy the freedoms that we do have. You want more stuff? Earn more money. Not too many of us earn a living behind the trigger, though I wish someone would offer me a job ammo testing. This is a pastime. We wring the most of what we can out of ourselves, out equipment, and our sub-par ammo. And I for one, LOVE IT!

pacecil
01-15-2008, 04:10 PM
From Beau
"Expensive Eley or Lapua is not worth the difference over SK Standard or Wolf or whatever until you enter competition. I don't believe anyone shoots more expensive ammo just for the heck of it. If lower end ammo could consistently compete it would be used consistently."

You are right - Shooters shoot the more expensive stuff because they think it is better. ($1200 ammo HAS to be better than $400 stuff!) The difference between Standard Plus and Tenex is very hard to determine. You almost have to shoot it all up to confirm just how much difference there really is. Now, I know many shooters claim there is a big difference, and they can see it by just firing a few groups, but I sure don't see it in the gun I last made a comparison with - and I admit this is just ONE gun, and I probably should have shot more groups. This is a very much modified 52C prone gun (It even has a tuner on it!) Maybe it wouldn't be competitive to shoot SK in BR but based on how I've observed all rimfire ammo shoots, I just have to say there won't be one shooter in a 100 that will be able to tell the difference.......And now we will hear from some of those other 99!!!

Colt.45
01-15-2008, 04:58 PM
pacecil
You are right,i DO think the more expensive ammo is better for competition.Last year due to high costs i shot only SK Standard.With that i finished 65th out of 734 on the A-Line and 91st. out of 734 on the Agg. Line. So....the cheaper ammo will allow a person to go and compete but will it let you win against the best Eley or Lapua.....i "feel" it will not. My Hongisto 40x is as good as any rifle i shot against,my wind flags are great,my rest is top notch so that seems to leave me and the ammo? Now i am not claiming to be a world class shooter but i can shoot and i have shot side by side with some of the very best...Brock,Hontz,Besche,Scott,Emmert and so on and have watched them get the hundreds when mine has been..just out.. too many times to not "think" the ammo makes a difference. So anyhow,i think the cheaper ammo shoots very well but when we are talking top level competition i think it will not allow you to win. Still, i hope to make several matches this year just to shoot with the guys!
Colt.45

Wilbur
01-15-2008, 05:13 PM
I'm trying to form a two man team - somebody to buy the ammo and me do the shooting. Once that's established we can start looking for the third member to cover the gas and match fees.

Fred K
01-15-2008, 05:29 PM
Wilbur
If you pulled that off, let me know how !
Fred K

Patriot
01-15-2008, 06:02 PM
If no one else finds this to be the case, please let me know. Perhaps I have rifle problems I don't know about.

I've seen exactly the same in smallbore prone with Wolf Target; great groups but once in a while a low 9 at 6 o'clock. (different targets?). I have not had one bad round (knock on wood) from the current lot of SK Match.

Mark

Reg Lingle
01-15-2008, 06:13 PM
Yamaha 225 TTR converted to road use, lights etc, gets over 100 MPG.

Beau
01-15-2008, 06:21 PM
Looks good there but somehow I can't see my FA headed down I-75 with one of those rigs.

Gene Corvin
01-15-2008, 06:34 PM
Looks good there but somehow I can't see my FA headed down I-75 with one of those rigs.

Beau, Get you a rig like that with a side car and you can bring Foster to Chattanooga!
Gene

Beau
01-15-2008, 06:38 PM
From Beau
You are right - Shooters shoot the more expensive stuff because they think it is better. ($1200 ammo HAS to be better than $400 stuff!) The difference between Standard Plus and Tenex is very hard to determine. You almost have to shoot it all up to confirm just how much difference there really is. Now, I know many shooters claim there is a big difference, and they can see it by just firing a few groups, but I sure don't see it in the gun I last made a comparison with - and I admit this is just ONE gun, and I probably should have shot more groups. This is a very much modified 52C prone gun (It even has a tuner on it!) Maybe it wouldn't be competitive to shoot SK in BR but based on how I've observed all rimfire ammo shoots, I just have to say there won't be one shooter in a 100 that will be able to tell the difference.......And now we will hear from some of those other 99!!!


Pacecil,

If you were to look back through my posts over the last several years you would see that one of my favorite slogans is "If you BELIEVE it works, it does." Now, I could argue the mental effect for tuners, barrel indexing, 6 O' Clock firing pins, generalized voodoo, and a few other things. But, there is a difference in ammo. I think the biggest difference is that you are more likely to find a good lot of ammo as the price goes up, but there are also some real duds in the high end ammo. I guess that also means that you can find some really good ammo in the lower end, but I think it's harder. I don't think the Eley, Lapua, Etc managers sit around and say "Let's make some Club today." Rather, I believe the testing determines the grade, so there should be some good ammo at all levels. But, again, I believe you will more likely find better ammo at the higher end. Now, I also believe that you generally have to shoot in competition to see the real difference. The reason seems to be that when there is no structure, a great four shot group with a flyer may simply be seen as "as good as it gets" or some shots are ignored on a score target. Problem is, it won't hold up in competition where one or two bad shots will put you in the middle of the pack and five or six will kill you. I'm not saying that you do this because you seem to be a little more scientifically minded than most. But, bottom line is if the various levels of ammo are equally as good, it ought to be fairly easy to prove that statistically. I've never seen it, but I have seen the opposite.

Beau
01-15-2008, 06:39 PM
Wally, if you'll ride it! I would be glad to pay for your gas!!

Foster, I know you would pay the gas because you could easily sell tickets to cover the costs.

j.higdon
01-15-2008, 06:58 PM
Foster, I know you well, but I don't know Beau, but it would be a funny sight to see you and Beau coming down the road to the range on a crotch rocket with a side car pulling a little trailor. :p

twalker
01-15-2008, 07:26 PM
With the new HIGH costs of ammo, maybe it is now time to settle down and shoot only one discipline??? Some of us older people (shooters) on a fixed income, are facing the challenge of all these new costs. My wife and I both shoot and two years ago we were faced with the decision to shoot only one discipline. Now we're faced with higher costs yet. What are some of you fellow shooters going to do to off set these costs????

I know the purists wouldn't like it, however, make CCI or RWS the only ammunition allowed and see who does the best with that! Most of the local pistol match shooters do this because it is cheap. The results are all relative anyway. I would have been out of your game a long time ago due to the price. Add the price of gas and it certainly puts a crimp in a lot of budgets. At the rate prices are escalating, we'll all be out of the game. We retirees of some duration have been screened out due to this.

karlssoni
01-15-2008, 08:43 PM
Sacrilegious though it may be, one way to level the field and ease the pain would be to have the match sponsor supply the ammo at cost.

hags
01-16-2008, 09:33 AM
I posted in a thread on the cost of some rifles in the classifieds. I was slammed and flamed, not to mention ridiculed.
The cost of this hobby is going to do nothing but go up, that can be seen across the board when it comes to ammo in all calibers.
For some either the quantity or quality will have to suffer to be able to afford it.

Pete Roberson
01-16-2008, 03:08 PM
new wife?

Way to go tim probably one less club to shoot at this summer,
at least for you!!
Pete

Renegade
01-16-2008, 09:51 PM
Reg,
I love it! My V-Star gets 40+mpg, but I'd have to add a sidecar for the dog and my fiancee would have to ride on the back. Add the trailer, and I'd be burning as much gas as a small car...but we'd definitely have more fun getting to the match!

Ah, Pete, now you've done it! Please remember to forward the PM's you're about to get to me when you share them with the rest of the NE shooting community.
Todd

Todd
01-16-2008, 10:12 PM
Keith - I've encountered the exact same problem with Wolf which is why I use Eley for matches. I recently set up a chronograph during a practice session with Wolf and whenever a shot dropped at the 6 o'clock position the chrono showed a major drop in velocity.

steve b.
01-16-2008, 10:56 PM
"What I find is the strange fliers I get from the occasional round of Wolf. Not one round out just a little but one round out a lot. Not the difference from the 10 ring, to the 9 ring. it's from the 10 ring to the 7 ring. Normally falling out the bottom. That one shot can and will cost you the match! "

Same thing for the guys at our club. You can be shooting just fine and then drop a nice on in the black on a RBA target. At that point, you're done.

Sk and Wolf is good ammo, but just too many "droppers" in each box.

wb9uze
01-18-2008, 09:44 PM
I have some great guns most of which are new builds. I find this thread about ammo prices agrees with my thinking totally. They are absolutely outrageous. I thought about this year and shooting so I decided to spend the money. Ever see what 4 cases of Eley will buy? Just take a look at my new Rifle to shoot it in also. Maybe I'll fire a round or two next year.....and maybe not.

tim
01-18-2008, 10:41 PM
Way to go tim probably one less club to shoot at this summer,
at least for you!!
Pete

Pete I'm lost, you want to translate this for me?
My earlier response was to the first post, no other, as in high cost? wife shoots? new wife? Duh.

BR50
01-19-2008, 12:04 AM
Iíve been reading these posts with interest and wondered how U.S. ammo prices compared to what we are paying here in Australia. Here are some average prices in U.S, dollars we are paying in Australia.

Eley EPS Black box $14.54 per box
Eley 10X Red Box $25.40 per box
Lapua Midas (L and M) $15.30 per box

It's almost enough to make you go to the Dark side and shoot Centre fire. Oh and Petrol is already around the U.S $5.00 per gallon.

Rick Curtis
01-19-2008, 05:54 AM
Allen,

Black box here is going for 9.75
Red box is now close to 13.50
Lapua Master M 7.25

Rick.

BR50
01-19-2008, 06:52 AM
Thanks Ric, it looks that we are paying nearly twice the amount you are. The excuse often given here is that the price rises are caused by the increase in lead prices. Hard to believe this when I can buy 500 12 Guage Remington trap for less than a brick of Rimfire. There's more lead in a shotshell than in a Rimfire bullet.

Dick Wright
01-19-2008, 08:19 AM
I thought about that when we decided on a format for our upcomng matches in Harrison...

I know this will give ARA true believers gas but we decided to go with the outlaw format used very successfully by Joe Haller up in the U.P. (The last Haller match I went to had about 40 shooters.) We are going to shoot one 25 bull target at 25 yds. and one at 50 yds. If you want to buy and shoot additional targets, up to two more targets at each distance, we will sell you same for $2.00 each... you and everyone else so it's fair.

You can come away from our matches having used only two boxes of ammo. That's half the amount you use in a four card ARA match.

My experience is that, with sighters, I use about one box of ammo per target. In our matches I can compete and only use two boxes if I want. I can shoot a total of six targets and use six boxes if I want... my choice. At aprox $15.00 a box for the good stuff, shooting six boxes per match can get expensive.

I hope you and Linda can make our first match June 7th. We are using IBS 50 yd. rimfire targets. The will be probably be several 500 scores shot, at least in the BR class, and you will win with X's. The X dot is 1/16" in dia. I chose the IBS target because it's a bit larger and might not intimidate factory gun shooters as much as the ARA or other more difficult targets.

One question I have is how to break a tie if two people shoot 500 - 50X. Any suggestions?

The club has approved our dates and the board is cooperating... this has not always been so. We have excellent new benches at both 25 and 50 yds. and can shoot both ranges simultaneously.

crb
01-19-2008, 08:33 AM
One question I have is how to break a tie if two people shoot 500 - 50X. Any suggestions?.

I discovered a new word on another site: wipeouts. If the dot is completely obliterated its a wipeout. If there is any of the dot showing it's not a wipeout. Most wipeouts wins.

cadillacjack
01-19-2008, 09:37 AM
Flip a coin. Save on ammo costs.

Todd
01-19-2008, 10:12 AM
If you want to save money, practice with Wolf and shot matches with Eley.

Fred J
01-19-2008, 11:06 AM
When I visited downunder in 2000, the exchange rate was around 1 to 1.7. In other words, at th bank, a $1000 Travelers check would return $1700 AUS. So It appears that the value would be close to the same.

Joe Haller
01-19-2008, 11:27 AM
Most of the rules we use here in Michigan's Upper Peninsula come from the USBR rule book. Most of the ones we don't use are related to the weight classes.

But: Talking about "TIE SCORES":

Tie scores are rare on the USBR target, because of the difficulty of getting an X. You must "wipe out" the .100" ten ring to get an X. That is a little tougher than wiping out a .031" dot.

On tie breakers, from the USBR rules:
--------------------------------------------------
1. Tied Score
If two, or more, competitors shoot the same score, the X-count will be used to break the tie. If, after including the X-count, the scores are still tied, the scores will be reported as a tie. (Example: if the third and fourth place finishers both shoot a 240-6x, both their positions will be recorded as 3T, and the next place will be 5.)

The Host Club may use any other method to break ties on a local level, such as holding a shoot-off or comparing individual bulls in a specific order. USBR recommends that this only be done when physical awards are at stake. When such procedures are used, the results should be included in the match report so they can be posted in the newsletter.
--------------------------------------------------
We have had a rare tie on occasion UP here on the Canadian Boarder. When we do, we give duplicate awards. Our awards are pretty cheap: Cost less than a buck, but they are unique. And: Yes, we sometimes have matches in the middle of the winter UP here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Joe_Haller/Awards/Jan2007.jpg

Joe Haller (Mr. Frosty)

tim
01-20-2008, 06:55 PM
Pete I'm lost, you want to translate this for me?
My earlier response was to the first post, no other, as in high cost? wife shoots? new wife? Duh.

Clarification.

Dick Wright
01-20-2008, 08:04 PM
We score an X if the hole touches the dot using the standard plugs. The post above suggesting "Wipeouts" sounds good for a tiebreaker.

We will probably have some ties among the better shooters due to the easier target we have chosen. We have some real rookies in the club that are planning to shoot. I don't want to scare them too badly with a tough target till they get a chance to try the game.

Using the IBS targets at 25 yards, I'm guessing the better shooters will get a lot of 250 scores with quite a few of 25 "X's". We'll probably have quite a few 250's at 50 yds. also, especially from those shooting BR rifles.

TangoTwo
01-20-2008, 08:11 PM
Rules regarding ties from IR50/50.

D. Ties
The Referees will check the targets starting with the #1 target block. First target block with higher points shot wins. If tie still exists after checking target blocks 1 through 25, go to #1 target block and check X's. The first one who gets an X and the other one does not match it wins. If tie still exists, go to #1 target block and the first X completely plugged out wins if not matched by other competitor.


Ken

Dick Wright
01-21-2008, 05:37 AM
The major reason for our increased costs for ammo is the value of the dollar vs the Euro. As the dollar loses value vs the euro it simply takes more of them to buy a case of ammo.

It ain't no pinko-commie plot... blame our politicians.

John Kielly
01-21-2008, 05:58 AM
It ain't no pinko-commie plot... blame our politicians.

No - your bankers. They were the ones who loaned squillions of dollars to customers who couldn't afford to pay them back to buy overpriced homes that have since dropped in value because your bankers loaned squillions of dollars to customers who couldn't afford to pay them back to buy overpriced homes that have since dropped in value because.....................

Rick Curtis
01-21-2008, 06:52 AM
Dick Wright,

I thought that too but after reading what some of our shooting counter parts in England are saying I'm not sure that's the truth anymore. They are paying the same or more for EPS Black and ULT.

Rick Curtis

win52c
01-21-2008, 11:17 AM
CMP at Camp Perry conducts the Whistler Boy Matches. During these smallbore matches the match director distributes enough ammo to each Jr. competitor to complete the course of fire in the Whistler Boy match.(Yes, it is Eley TENEX)
Consider this thought: Benchrest Match Directors distribute $5.00, $7.00 or $11.00 a box (preferably the $5.00/box) to each competitor, enough to complete the course of fire and sighters for a particular class. Whistler Boy shooters are required to use that ammo. Competitors face a DQ if they are found using ammo other than that distributed by match director. One box of 50 rounds per target Ö thatís $5.00 per discipline. Match director can option to pretest ammo with chronograph to determine approx. average FPS velocity (to see if it matches manufacturers rating). Cost of ammo (not for profit) built into match fees. Competitors carry home their unused allotments. Unlimited class "can bring your own ammo" (BYOA).
What can this achieve:
1. A level field for all competitors regarding ammo. Eliminate ammo differences, focus more on shooters ability
2. A more knowledgeable shooter who knows how to adjust his equipment to the ammo and its muzzle velocity
3. An end to the constant chase of "Elite" ammo and the exorbitant prices that follow.
4. A service to the competitors that ammo will be available at a match.
5. Both a Pro-active and Re-active approach to halt the loss of competitors due to economic increases of ammo and transportation.

I'm not suggesting that you turn the match director into a ammo retailer, ( of which there is almost always someone who buys in bulk for clubs and or has a business interest in firearms and ammo that attends club matches) but the concept definitely has potential to control costs.

win52c

BrentD
01-21-2008, 01:22 PM
Our club is a schuetzen club and shoots a much different venue that you guys but nonetheless, we are considering a PGA .22 match. PGA= Pretty Good Ammo that the club agrees to buy and which everyone has to shoot for that particular match. That's okay but why stop there? Why not make everyone shoot the same rifle too? Not everyone can afford the $X,000 match rifle and scope either.

Brent

Reg Lingle
01-21-2008, 01:56 PM
Hi Sailer, I built one to go behind my converted Yamaha. Over 100 MPG. Contact me reglingle@centurytel.net for photos and specs. Reg Lingle

Beau
01-21-2008, 03:03 PM
Consider this thought: Benchrest Match Directors distribute $5.00, $7.00 or $11.00 a box

Why not have $5.00, $7.00 and $11.00 all available and the match and let each shooter choose how much he/she pays. Then we could see if it's really too expensive.

Single Shot
01-21-2008, 06:06 PM
Dick,
I don't think it has much to do with the Euro as England does not use the Euro, they use the Pound Sterling.
SS


The major reason for our increased costs for ammo is the value of the dollar vs the Euro. As the dollar loses value vs the euro it simply takes more of them to buy a case of ammo.

It ain't no pinko-commie plot... blame our politicians.

Tom R
01-21-2008, 06:29 PM
Hi,
The reason for the price increase is
THE ECONOMY!!!
2005 the price of 1 EURO was $.80 per dollar
Today it is $1.50 U.S. per 1 Euro
There are European countries who will not accept the U.S. dollar
I am NO econimist BUT SOMETHING IS WRONG!
Tom R:confused:

Single Shot
01-21-2008, 07:40 PM
Your probably right, SOMETHING IS WRONG, but still England does not use the Euro. It uses the British Pound, and it takes about $ 1.95 U S to buy one British Pound, add shipping etc. and now you know why Eley is so pricey. We would be a bit better off if they did use the Euro but not by much as it takes about $ 1.45 to buy one Euro.
SS

Colt.45
01-21-2008, 09:21 PM
Single Shot
I really don't think the ratio of dollar to pound is the cause either. When i was in England in 1977 the pound was worth about$1.75 so.... not much difference now?
Colt.45

Beau
01-21-2008, 10:14 PM
Your probably right, SOMETHING IS WRONG, but still England does not use the Euro. It uses the British Pound, and it takes about $ 1.95 U S to buy one British Pound, add shipping etc. and now you know why Eley is so pricey. We would be a bit better off if they did use the Euro but not by much as it takes about $ 1.45 to buy one Euro.
SS

Except it would take 1.34 Euro to buy a British Pound and 1.95 dollars to buy 1.34 Euro.

relodr36
01-21-2008, 10:37 PM
Gee,I can't understand why everyone is complaining about the increased cost of shooting !
The Federal Government sent me a letter last month,saying that the cost-of-living had only gone up 2.4% last year. I'm going to get another $30 a month in my Social Security check,so I'll be in hog heaven.
I don't know whether to buy 2 extra bricks of Blazers or an extra 7 gallons of diesel fuel ???
Ron

Single Shot
01-21-2008, 11:10 PM
Well,
If it's not the currency exchange rate, or the shipping cost, maybe it's just the U S Eley dealers trying to become rich by putting it to the shooters, or it maybe the US Eley distributors putting it to the dealers, or maybe it's the British putting it to the US distributors, or maybe all of the above, and if it's all of the above that's why the price is what it is.
SS

Mr. D
01-22-2008, 03:08 AM
Not being an economist it beats me how the British can keep the Pound Sterling so high as related to imports! When I was there a few years back it sure hurt exchanging Dollars for Pounds! A continental breakfast was about $45.00 after the exchange in our London hotel! Yikes! Only Paul McCartney could afford steak and eggs for breakfast!

So should I buy another case if 17 HMR ammo while I can afford it???

Dick Wright
01-22-2008, 05:57 AM
the pound sterling. However, the same thing applies. Th exchange rate used to be about $1.40 to $1.50 for the pound.

Brian_K
01-22-2008, 06:33 AM
Anybody want to come over and shoot in England?

Todayís ammo prices from the NSRA (per thousand)

Tenex $338.34
EPS $229.67
Club $147.26

Fancy a nice Remington 700PSS in .308 - $1717.70

How about the diesel to go and collect all this $7.44 per US gallon

Patriot
01-22-2008, 07:05 AM
No - your bankers. They were the ones who loaned squillions of dollars to customers who couldn't afford to pay them back to buy overpriced homes that have since dropped in value because your bankers loaned squillions of dollars to customers who couldn't afford to pay them back to buy overpriced homes that have since dropped in value because.....................

... and anyone who reads knew it was going on and knew we'd have to pay the piper. So while our overpaid government is imposing Sarbanes-Oxley on honest companies and driving up our costs because they failed to keep an eye on the rotten ba...rds stealing from the pension funds, they are ignoring, wink wink, their banker buddies who are using hope and the American dream to milk the poor's little money. Any if you don't already know, a bank auditor couldn't find his shorts using both hands.

As for the middle class folks who thought they were working the system, they put their money down, they threw the dice, they crapped out. If I go to a casino or gamble on a company buying their stock I don't expect anyone to come to my aid if it goes down; they should not either.

Why does our government let companies draw out surplus pension funds in good years as profits? When a bad year or two comes around the funds are often under funded or companies do away with the pensions. One more way to stick it to the small guy. Why haven't the union officials been on top of this? Are they stupid, lazy, or in on the deal?

So, we have our government, both Democrats and Republicans to partially thank for this mess. America is a great county and deserves better. This time I'm voting NO! Vote Ron Paul!!!!

Mr. D
01-27-2008, 10:39 AM
What unfair attitudes you guys have! If the international corporations and special interests have bought our government with campaign contributions why shouldn't they get to run it? :D

If we don't like it we could always get public financing of campaigns and make illegal for candidates and incumbents to take a single cent! I guess we'd rather save that cost and see a hundred times that much go out in "pork and sweetheart contracts" to pay back special interests! Makes sense to me! Why spend money on "state of the art technical educations" that lead our kids directly into skilled jobs when we can spend that money on more prisons when they commit crimes because they are unemployable!

Sound like one of those moderate liberals wrote this! :rolleyes: