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View Full Version : What Happened to RBA? what will happen?



cadillacjack
01-12-2008, 09:18 AM
I understand when RBA was formed it was supposed to be an organization of Shooters,for Shooters, by Shooters. It appears that membership has significantly dwindled and the number of places shooting RBA has decreased in the last few years. Why Is This? Could it be the complete lack of communication between the President and the members?(When was the last time you heard from Bob Collins?) Could it be the secretive way in which Bob Collins Runs The Organization?(When was the last time you saw or were sent a copy fo the financial condition of RBA? When were you told or shown where where YOUR mempership fees are or how they were spent? When were you told or shown where the $1.50 You pay per target is or where it was spent? Did you see the message Bob Collins Posted On This Forum of the PROPOSED RULE CHANGES? Did you see and join in the discussion Bob Collins encouraged members and RBA shooters to engage in PRIOR TO THE SECRATIVE VOTE MAKING THESE RULE CHANGES? Did YOU even know there were propossed rule changes? Did you know Bob Collins HAS A PISTOL HE WOULD LIKE TO SHOOT IN WHAT USED TO BE THE 10.5 CLASS? Did you Know that YOUR CURRENT SPOORTER WOULD BECOME OBSOLETE WITH THE RULE CHANGE? Did you Know Tradition means absolutely nothing to Bob Collins? Did you know Bob Collins runs the RBA like he owns it? Did you know membership in IR50/50 is growing during these troubled times for RBA? Did you wonder why the dues were increased? Did you wonder what Plans Bob Collins has for these fees? DOES IT LOOK LIKE THE END OF RBA TO YOU? LASTLY, BOB COLLINS, IF THE RBA IS PAYING SHOOTERS EXPENES TO ITALY, SIGN ME UP!!!! Hey Bob Collins, Why don't you start running RBA for the members as a whole and not your special little interest group? If you agree with the aforementioned please post: if you disagree with the aforementioned please post. Lets ALL take part in the future of RBA. These are just MY thoughts. FRED LEEDS

hoser
01-12-2008, 10:19 AM
I saw a TV program last night about "happiness". I think rimfire benchrest shooters were near the bottom of the list.

Hose

hulk
01-12-2008, 11:41 AM
You asked for thoughts, so here are mine. They are not directed at anyone and the pronoun, "someone", does not reference anyone.


This is a situation that happens all of the time.

Someone is dissatified with something or somebody and decides to vent. After whining, moaning and groaning about it, they then sit on their dead hands and wait for someone else to make things right.

If you don't like it, change it. Create your own organization, make your own rules and run it as you see fit. Surely, with you in charge, everyone will be happy and your organization will flourish.

Put your money where your mouth is and run local, regional and national matches that meet with your approval. This cannot be too much for someone like you to handle.

Ultimately, your success and leadership will unify all rimfire shooters under one shooting organization for decades to come.

I will be the first to not hold my breath.

Bill Myers
01-12-2008, 12:01 PM
I have a question,Bob or whoever ,hopefully can get me a answer,The Sporter class has been changed again,I am kinda neutral on this because in one way,its easier & less money to build a sporter without the clips Or Safteys.I currently hold the Indoor sporter record in Meters,It was shot in the old Tuckertown Barn quite a number of years ago when wood stocks,Clips,Safteys & rould bottom stocks were being used,Before all the rule changes,Now,MY Question,Should a sporter of the newer rules be allowed to break my record,if so you RBA Boys are going in the wrong direction,Even the 2 gun records ,will be at risk.For every action there is always a reaction,Thanks & I am looking forward to a reply. BILL

cadillacjack
01-12-2008, 12:35 PM
Hulk, in the last 3 months I invested (bad term)(bought, better term) two new sporters costing in excess of $6,000. Had the President informed me or anyone else of the rule changes forth comming, I would not have had these guns built. If this is whining: so be it. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and and buy these two guns then I'll will quit what you call whining. I won't hold my breath. Fred

hulk
01-12-2008, 12:59 PM
CJ,

First, it is whining, so be it. You are not the first, nor will you be the last to invest/purchase something that had a limited payback/lifespan due to circumstances beyond our control.

I am completely confused by your wanting me to put my money where my mouth is and purchase your rifles to stop your whining. I do not care if you whine until the next Ice Age. Nevertheless, if it will help, I will bid $3.00 each for your rifles.

billyg
01-12-2008, 01:15 PM
If everytime there is an advance or improvement in guns,tuners,triggers,ammo ,barrels and we wanted to make a record stand forever we would be making a lot of records changes. If the guns are same weight and have same scopes then it does not matter if it has a safety or a magazine which is not used. A single shot has little or no edge over a clip fitted repeater.
The whole plan is to increase accuracy for less cost and compete more for the same dollars and get more shooters involved for less dollars. Screw tradition if it does not do these things.
If Bob is using RBA for his own personal toy then the members will wake up and leave or change leadership.
If anyone wants to shhot a Calfee pistol against a 10.5 lb rifle more power to him, I think he will lose regularly as the pistol are shot now.
The moneys should be accounted for in all cases to the membership no exceptions.

Single Shot
01-12-2008, 01:51 PM
Who owns RBA ?

Is it the members, or is it Bob Collins and a few of his
friends. If RBA is a real Association with membership cards and such, and run by the way members vote then you may have something to whine about.

If it's owned by Bob Collins and a few of his friends then you don't really have much to whine about, you will have to go with the way he wants it or go, or go somewhere else to shoot.
S/S

cadillacjack
01-12-2008, 01:54 PM
If you don't like it, change it(someones quote)

Apparently someone doesn't get it!! The whole purpose of my post was to bring about some intelectual discussion about about the changes, Then if the majority of RBA shooters agreed with my thoughts the old rules could be reinstated. All shooters would be made aware of the changes and a vote could be had to determine what the shooters prefer. Hopefully, someone understands this, but probably not.

Ray Charles could see I am the someone to whom your orginal post was directed. If you haven't the intellect or courage to rationally discuss the issue, why waste your time,mine and all RBA's shooters with your rambeling banter concerning the important issue I brought to light.

Though you may not agree with my thoughts, I am by no means sitting on my hands. If you don't agree with my method of bringing about change so be it. At least I'm being pro-active and positive unlike yourself. The point is the circumstances are not beyond our control. Hey Hulk, Have a Great Day. Fred

Fred J
01-12-2008, 01:56 PM
RBA was designed by rimfire benchrest shooters, for rimfire benchrest shooters. Our goal is to enjoy the fellowship of shooters from across the country as well as test our skills against other countries around the world. Matches are contested in three classes - 7.5 lbs, 10.5 lbs and Unlimited at 50 yards and 50 meters. We cordially invite anyone to participate in our sport. Please join us in developing this discipline and help us promote shooting sports.

cadillacjack
01-12-2008, 01:57 PM
Singleshot, It is my understanding RBA IS owned by the shooters and NOT Bob Collins. Thanks for your input. Fred

burtona
01-12-2008, 02:00 PM
RBA is chartered in North Carolina as a Not-for-Profit Corporation. Bob Collins is the elected President by the Board of Directors which consist of all the Match Directors of RBA chartered clubs. Individual shooters have a voice to represent them through the Match Directors of the clubs where they shoot. The BOD (Match Directors) are the ones that make rule changes by a majority vote.

cclfn
01-12-2008, 02:00 PM
Let me weigh in here, as the RBA match director of Oregon last year, I would like to make a couple points. First I am always disappointed when I find out more information from this website than is shared with the MDís from RBA. It is unfortunate that there are not more individuals willing to participate in the management and operations of these organizations. I for one voiced my opinions and opposed most of these rule changes as I do not see the need to fix something that isnít broken.

Unfortunately I was unable to attend the annual board meeting and because I was given approximately five days notice of what was being proposed as changes I did not have time to prepare much of a case.

I have not been informed of the results from the meeting or seen minutes but was told all 10 items passed. I understand there where six MDís and according to Bob Collins all 22 had input? I know for a fact that the four from this side of the country were against the rule changes.

I think it is poor management to change the rules of an entire organization for just a few and I think that is what this amounts to fir these two issues.

The rule change for the Sporter class eliminates Sporter completely. Now we have a 7.5 pound custom class. The only argument I have heard for the change was to save money. Well if you have to pay $50 more for a trigger with a safety and a $100 more for a magazine well and clip on a custom sporter that is a drop in the bucket. If you think the masses are suddenly going to run out and have a custom sporter built because they can save $150 you are way off base. There are a few people that want to use an action with a solid receiver and make it qualify in sporter class. That is not fair to the current sporter owners that have built according to the rules, and the prior record holders.

The issue on pistols is exactly the same thing. This has always been a rifle contest and I am impressed that there are a few people that can shoot a customized pistol well enough to compete with rifles. But these four or five people can shoot in unlimited already why make special rules for one or two people, especially if those two people happen to be on the board of directors.

I run matches and try to make as many people happy as I can. I think there is a problem here but I am not sure anyone cares enough to get involved to make a correction.

No whining just my thoughts.

Wes King

burtona
01-12-2008, 02:06 PM
Let me weigh in here, as the RBA match director of Oregon last year, I would like to make a couple points. First I am always disappointed when I find out more information from this website than is shared with the MDís from RBA. It is unfortunate that there are not more individuals willing to participate in the management and operations of these organizations. I for one voiced my opinions and opposed most of these rule changes as I do not see the need to fix something that isnít broken.

Unfortunately I was unable to attend the annual board meeting and because I was given approximately five days notice of what was being proposed as changes I did not have time to prepare much of a case.

I have not been informed of the results from the meeting or seen minutes but was told all 10 items passed. I understand there where six MDís and according to Bob Collins all 22 had input? I know for a fact that the four from this side of the country were against the rule changes.

I think it is poor management to change the rules of an entire organization for just a few and I think that is what this amounts to fir these two issues.

The rule change for the Sporter class eliminates Sporter completely. Now we have a 7.5 pound custom class. The only argument I have heard for the change was to save money. Well if you have to pay $50 more for a trigger with a safety and a $100 more for a magazine well and clip on a custom sporter that is a drop in the bucket. If you think the masses are suddenly going to run out and have a custom sporter built because they can save $150 you are way off base. There are a few people that want to use an action with a solid receiver and make it qualify in sporter class. That is not fair to the current sporter owners that have built according to the rules, and the prior record holders.

The issue on pistols is exactly the same thing. This has always been a rifle contest and I am impressed that there are a few people that can shoot a customized pistol well enough to compete with rifles. But these four or five people can shoot in unlimited already why make special rules for one or two people, especially if those two people happen to be on the board of directors.

I run matches and try to make as many people happy as I can. I think there is a problem here but I am not sure anyone cares enough to get involved to make a correction.

No whining just my thoughts.

Wes King

Wes, You hit the nail on the head IMO!
Dave Burton

Fred K
01-12-2008, 02:16 PM
I agree with some of the comments made by Fred.

I have been a member of the RBA for several years now. During this time I have never had the opportunity to vote or been ask about what I thought of any changes. All shooters in the RBA should be aware of purposed changes and allowed to vote yea or nay. We are Paying Members therefore we should and must be involved in making the decisions.

Fred K

sailor
01-12-2008, 02:48 PM
I have no dog in this fight, but let me say it sure makes interesting reading for us folks who are looking to get started (or started again, in my case) and are wondering which discipline to shoot.

Mike

Dave Shattuck
01-12-2008, 02:52 PM
If I didn't know better I would suggest you should come on over to IR 50/50. But, I can't! The reason is that at our last nationals in N.Y., during the meeting, this same issue was brought forth, and thankfully Wilbur tabled the discussion. The problem is; you and I both know that next year it will be brought up again, and with more push for its happening where RBA has made the change.

I think that maybe we should concider this: if you like the idea of having a 7.5# Class instead of a Sporter Class, then maybe you should consider shoot RBA and leave IR 50/50 well enough alone! But, if you don't like the idea, then come on over to IR 50/50 and leave your excess baggage behind.

Wilbur, if you are reading this, please, please remember that you DO OWN IR 50/50 and can tell everybody who wants to change it to either shut up or move along!

Dave Shattuck

Single Shot
01-12-2008, 02:53 PM
If the members do not know what is going on in an Association that they joined it's either there own fault for not paying attention or poor communications between the officials and the members.

Like Fred K said,
"I have never had the opportunity to vote or been ask about what I thought of any changes. All shooters in the RBA should be aware of purposed changes and allowed to vote yea or nay. We are Paying Members therefore we should and must be involved in making the decisions."

If this is the way it is maybe it's time that Bob C. and some of the other officials come forward and explain why the members seem to be in the dark about what is happing to "their" Association.
S/S

tim
01-12-2008, 03:27 PM
If I didn't know better I would suggest you should come on over to IR 50/50. But, I can't! The reason is that at our last nationals in N.Y., during the meeting, this same issue was brought forth, and thankfully Wilbur tabled the discussion. The problem is; you and I both know that next year it will be brought up again, and with more push for its happening where RBA has made the change.

I think that maybe we should concider this: if you like the idea of having a 7.5# Class instead of a Sporter Class, then maybe you should consider shoot RBA and leave IR 50/50 well enough alone! But, if you don't like the idea, then come on over to IR 50/50 and leave your excess baggage behind.

Wilbur, if you are reading this, please, please remember that you DO OWN IR 50/50 and can tell everybody who wants to change it to either shut up or move along!

Dave Shattuck

That's a pretty large oversimplification of events at the nationals. After LOTS of talk and comment it became quite clear no substantial majority wanted any change and THEN Wilbur brought it to an end.
The point, I think, is that there was plenty of time to kick it around and Wilbur did not subvert that.
Frankly, trying to second guess what happens in a year is less than productive.

Fudd
01-12-2008, 05:01 PM
I don't have a dog in the fight anymore, but Yes RBA is owned by the membership. All rules changes were to be brought up at the Nationals and published to give time for the Match Directors to have discussions with the shooters to find out what the shooters wanted, then the Match Director was to take the majority vote to the BOD meeting in person or proxy. The game was born out of some problems with IR 50/50 to give the shooters the say in how the game was run and which direction it would take instead of how a dictator wanted it to be run and go in what direction. I will be the first to say that RBA has never been run perfectly as it was designed and we knew that allowing everyone to have a voice in the direction of the game would cause some problems, but we thought that it would still be the best game for the shooters.

Again, I do not have a dog in the fight, but ALL the shooters do, and they can change it whenever they want.

Thanks,

Scott

ruger Rob
01-12-2008, 05:57 PM
I also am a match director from the west coast and I too received very limited time to respond in writing, much less to book a flight to attend the secret meeting. I agree with what Wes has to say in that members should have a vote in rule changes as opposed to a few individuals deciding our rule changes. I never received a call from Bob about the proposed rule changes which in turn did not allow me to contact the participants in my matches to encourage them to give their opinions and feedback. I think this lack of adequate notification for items that essentially change the classes that we as shooters have been accustomed to is a blatant disregard for its members opinions and thoughts. These rule changes should be put to a vote by the members before going in to effect.

Robert Freshwater

bill s
01-12-2008, 06:19 PM
how many people we have here in Arkansas that were just waiting for the price of sporters to go down $150 bucks.... So they can spend $2850 and not $3000...... we may have to put in more benches!.....But how many shooters will we lose???????
The top shooters will win "BIG MONEY"?????... take a look at where last years top 7 or 8 shooters were from......??? !!! Shoot as many matches a month as you want at your club?????
More money!!!
More ammo!!!:eek::eek::confused: Think about it!!!!!:mad:

Kent Owens
01-12-2008, 06:23 PM
Bill Sims,
Do you still make the wind indicators for sale?

bill s
01-12-2008, 06:36 PM
I sent you a pm...

David K
01-12-2008, 06:46 PM
Ok, sure there are some changes made in RBA. Whats the big deal? First does anyone believe that a singleshot 7.5 lb.rifle with no safety will out shoot a clip feed ? NO! Does anyone believe a pistol will increase there scores? No! Why would anyone with a clip feed rifle feel like they needed a new singleshot sporter if it would not increase there scores. The records will not be any easer to beat than they already are. Again whats the big deal. Sure there could always be better communications between the board of directors and the shooters but whats new, everyone is suppose to communicate with their match director at their local range. The match directors were advised on suggested rule changes prior to the nationals. I do think that a info or news tab on the RBA web site would help solve some communication issues.
From what I understand the new membership fees increase is to cover the increase in cost of postage and other rising expenses. The money that is in the general fund goes to cover prizes that are given away based on the point standings. Giving away money prizes next year will be easier to manage and mail to participants that are not able to be at Nationals.
I just love to shoot. And like RBA, IR 50/50 and ARA origanizations. The shooters at our local range prefer the RBA target because of the number of sighters on the page and thats why we shoot RBA. I guess I just don't simply see how the new rule changes could have a negative effect on a match except for helping new shooters to get involved at a lower cost.
David

Kent Owens
01-12-2008, 06:56 PM
David,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ken Fulghum just set a new Indoor Meters sporter class record last weekend at Rocky River Barn using a rifle that met the old rules? He shot a 250-17X I think, and I think the old record was 249-15X. I'm going by memory, those numbers may be wrong.
It doesn't matter what I think but as always I'll say it anyway, I think the sporter rule change was a positive. I don't think it'll make a sporter any easier to shoot, just easier to build with more action options.

cadillacjack
01-12-2008, 07:11 PM
David, I'm not gunsmith,but I have spoken with several and they suggested to me that the more ridgid a rifle can be made the better channce for superior accuracy.(i.e. giving the rifle without a slot in the bottom of the action an edge to the gun with a slot). As I said I'm not a gunsmith so I would suggest you check with your gunsmith. Bill Myers brings up a good point, How will the changes affect the exsisting records? It may not be big deal, I don't know. At least all shooters should be allowed to make the choice for themselves and then given a chance to voice their opinion.

David K
01-12-2008, 07:48 PM
I'm not a good sporter shooter but I do hold my own when indoors and with a heaver gun. The shooter beside me at the indoor nationals out shot me with a sporter rifle and I shot 249's . Besides that look at the records they are not that much different. David

Renegade
01-12-2008, 08:25 PM
My package with the proposed rule changes was postmarked Dec. 28th. In a larger town, I would have had it on the Tue. or Wed. before the meeting where the rules were voted on. We don't have mail delivery here (everyone in the Village has to pick up their mail at the P.O.), and I work out of town. I got the package on the day of the "secret" meeting.

Even if I did have it in my hand 3 days before the meeting, is it really reasonable to expect me to contact each and every shooter at Salem and ask them their opinions and expect answers back in time to send in our votes? It's mid-Winter up here, and I won't see or hear from some of my shooters till April.

I would have voted against the Sporter rule changes, fee increase, and the Pistol provision, had I had a chance to do so.

Just my .02 worth,
Todd Banks
Salem Pistol and Rifle Club, NY

cadillacjack
01-12-2008, 08:35 PM
Unquestionably,the scores you people have listed are great scores. However, they may have been even higher had they been shot with a gun having the advantage of a more ridgid action.

ruger Rob
01-12-2008, 09:04 PM
Send in are votes? That would have been great. Truth be told even as a match director I did not get a chance to vote. Only those attending the secret me eting got the opportunity to decide our rule changes. I think that it is B.S that rule changes like this can be made with at bare minimum a ballot given to all match directors.

A. ELECTION OF DIRECTORS.
1. The Board of Directors shall be composed of the Match Directors from each Sanctioned club.2. Any Director shall be at least 18 years of age.
3. The official publication of the Rimfire Benchrest Association shall list the Board of Directors
B. DUTIES OF DIRECTORS.
The Directors shall conduct the business of Rimfire Benchrest Association and shall meet at least once a year during the week of the Nationals, or at some other time as determined by the Board, at a site to be selected by the Board, or by mail or conference call. All directors shall be notified by the President by mail at least 30 days prior to the meeting. Meetings will be conducted accordance with Robert’s Rules of Order. The Board of Directors will elect officers: a President, a Vice President, a Business Manager, and may elect an Executive Committee and other officers as needed. The Board will be responsible for deciding by a simple majority vote any changes to the rules and By-laws of Rimfire Benchrest Association.
C. VOTING OF DIRECTORS.
1. Each Director shall have 1 vote. A quorum shall constitute a majority of all Directors.
2. If a Director cannot attend the meeting of Rimfire Benchrest Association then he/she may appoint another member from his/her club to represent him/her. 3. If any Director should die or resign during his/her term, then the Sanctioned Club shall appoint a new Director.
4. Balloting by mail or conference call is allowed in cases where time does not allow for delay of the action until the next Board Meeting. Mail ballots will be sent by the Business Manager to the Directors must be returned to the Business Manager within 14 days of receipt.


I personally do not feel the resent changes are legitimate even by our own rules.

bill s
01-12-2008, 10:20 PM
I'm not worried about the world records. I aint that good. It's the every day matches that will make a difference. I think that is why the rule was changed. The world records are so high now they are nearly untouchable. My sporter shoots pretty good but I think a solid bottom will shoot better day in and day out...Why else would you want to change it. Sporters were put in because the are hard to shoot. Its hard to win a 3 gun if your sporter aint there..... Bill

Dave Shattuck
01-13-2008, 11:24 AM
That's a pretty large oversimplification of events at the nationals. After LOTS of talk and comment it became quite clear no substantial majority wanted any change and THEN Wilbur brought it to an end.
The point, I think, is that there was plenty of time to kick it around and Wilbur did not subvert that.
Frankly, trying to second guess what happens in a year is less than productive.

Tim,

You are obviously too new at this game to understand the difference. The point I was making is: Wilbur OWNS IR 50/50 outright. He bought it from Helen Cook the fall after Milt died. That makes it his to control. Every single shooter in America might want a rule change to be added, but if Wilbur doesn't want to change the rules: too bad for those that do!

Dave

Single Shot
01-13-2008, 12:21 PM
What's all this stuff about a SECRET meeting, if RBA is really a members Association and run in accordance to the RBA by-laws/constitution or conducted by Robertís Rules of Order I don't think secret meetings are allowed, and anything as impotent as rule changes should be voted on by the members, not just by a few select officials at some secret meeting.
As to the records, it's a no brainier, the old records have to be retired and new records established for the new rules.
S/S

Fred K
01-13-2008, 12:44 PM
Single Shot
I don't believe or think the Yearly RBA Meeting was held in Secret.
Fred K

smoke
01-13-2008, 12:53 PM
We only have ourselves to blame for the present RBA situation. As a recent MD I had the opportunity to attend 3-4 BOD meetings at national events. At the first meeting (under the previous leadership) I was the "newbie" but was impressed by the spirit by which the meeting was conducted with input solicited from the MD's. At subsequent meetings, under the present regime, it was apparent that the tone had changed-it seemed that any comments contrary to the president's agenda were summarily disregarded. Then, during the shooting season, no attempt was made to solicit MD input on items to be discussed at the next BOD meeting. This is contrary to the procedures/charter which is supposed to govern RBA. While I could site specifics, it should not be necessary since a number of MD's were present to see how the system had deteriorated. But, we did nothing! We didn't say "stop" and get back to the way RBA was designed to work. Then, when it came time for elections and the potential to change direction, we again did nothing! The RBA SHOOTING program was IMO, the best at one time (no offense Wilbur-your game is excellent), however, in the RBA game the number of clubs participating, membership etc. has been and continues to be in decline. Again, this is our fault! The blame is not on individuals who may have been well intentioned, but rather, on those of us who have permitted the situation to evolve. What then is the solution? Several possibilities come to mind but, these must come from the MD's themselves. Any thoughts? Bob Vail

tim
01-13-2008, 02:14 PM
Tim,

You are obviously too new at this game to understand the difference. The point I was making is: Wilbur OWNS IR 50/50 outright. He bought it from Helen Cook the fall after Milt died. That makes it his to control. Every single shooter in America might want a rule change to be added, but if Wilbur doesn't want to change the rules: too bad for those that do!

Dave

No Dave I'm not new and I know where the game came from. If you reread your post again it sounds as if Wilbur cut short the discussion which in fact he allowed until it bacame obvious there was no consensus. Even though he owns it, it would appear he tries to be fair and in fact was. This brings me to point number two, if you shut up every once in a while we would'nt need point number one.:D

tim
01-13-2008, 06:03 PM
Sailor, I'll tell you what, you come shoot IR 50/50. We'll trade RBA one large, unnamed, hairy shooter and a 2009 first round draft choice. The trade includes a big roll of duct tape to tape up a pie hole so everybody can shoot in peace for the day.:D

Kent Owens
01-13-2008, 06:36 PM
Dave,
If according to your post "Every single shooter in IR5050 wanted a rule change, and old Wilbur told 'em to take a hike, well he wouldn't have a game to own, now would he?
Fortunately, Wilbur is a logical guy. Is IR5050 perfect, NO it's not. But, Wilbur does a great job mediating, and listens to logical complaints and is concerned about the game as a whole. He's a good man!

PS- the sporter rule does need adjusting. Forearm needs to be round as a shovel handle and a 4X scope! Wouldn't hurt if you turned loose some rattle snakes on the line when the begin fire command sounded, just to make it tougher.

tim
01-13-2008, 07:02 PM
Dave,
If according to your post "Every single shooter in IR5050 wanted a rule change, and old Wilbur told 'em to take a hike, well he wouldn't have a game to own, now would he?
Fortunately, Wilbur is a logical guy. Is IR5050 perfect, NO it's not. But, Wilbur does a great job mediating, and listens to logical complaints and is concerned about the game as a whole. He's a good man!

PS- the sporter rule does need adjusting. Forearm needs to be round as a shovel handle and a 4X scope! Wouldn't hurt if you turned loose some rattle snakes on the line when the begin fire command sounded, just to make it tougher.

Absolutely. At that match there was ample time for anybody to make any contribution, many did, and did so for quite a while, only then was it put to bed. Did not seem heavy handed in the least IMHO.

Gary Lemons
01-13-2008, 07:33 PM
Absolutely. At that match there was ample time for anybody to make any contribution, many did, and did so for quite a while, only then was it put to bed. Did not seem heavy handed in the least IMHO.

Tim,
I think you have summed up the IR5050 meeting the best of anyone who has posted on this issue.

As you and others are aware, I was the one who brought the sporter changes up and played devil's advocate for the changes. When it was apparent that the majority of shooters did not want the changes, Wilbur did the right thing by going on to other topics and that was the end of the discussion.

The end result of the discussion showed what the shooters wanted for rules, which in most cases is the right thing. Afterall, without shooters, the game will disappear. To be successful, the games have to be for the majority of those shooters actively participating in them. Otherwise, they will simply go in another direction, leaving the organization to die an unglamorous death at the hands of the minority.

Dave, if the rule changes are brought up next year, it will not be by me.

Kent, you can keep the snakes, but I'll shoot a broomhandle stock if you will.

Gary

Single Shot
01-13-2008, 07:43 PM
Guys,
Please don't forget, this thread is supposed to be about the problems with RBA and has nothing to do with Wilber or IR 50/50, no one can please everyone, but most seem happy with the way IR 50/50 is run and if a person wants to shoot IR 50/50 he goes by Wilber's rules or he goes some place else to shoot.

This is about the RBA and member involvement, or non-involvement as the case may be. RBA is not a privately owned club or run by one or a few people, it's supposed to be run by the shooters and for the shooters that pay dues, and from what has been said so far that's not what has been happening, it's starting to sound like one of the "good old boys clubs", not a good thing when other members are paying the freight.
S/S

Rod Collins
01-13-2008, 07:54 PM
I think the changes were made to try to increase shooter participation. If you have any other ideas on how to get more shooters, your thoughts would be welcome.

Single Shot
01-13-2008, 08:06 PM
"I think the changes were made to try to increase shooter participation"

That may be so, but the way it was done probablty was not the way to do it, now you may want to re-think what has been done and figure out some way to keep the members you have.
S/S

tim
01-13-2008, 08:16 PM
Gary, I beg to differ and ask you to reconsider. Firstly I would not call you the devil's advocate, on the contrary the measure of a healthy and vibrant organization is the ability to voice any rule to either change or verify it. The discussion was civil and thought provoking. The fact that nothing happened this year should not make you feel the least bit reluctant to bring it to the table down the road. This sport has always balanced change and tradition, it's a constant work in progress,no?

Rod Collins
01-13-2008, 08:16 PM
Did you mean to say WE may want to re-think what has been done and figure out some way to keep the members WE have.

Kent Owens
01-13-2008, 08:21 PM
SS,
I apologize for even getting in on this thread at all. I shot RBA for several years, and I was a MD too. I enjoyed shooting 3-gun RBA a lot. I like all the organizations, IR5050, RBA, ARA. However last year I decided to shoot just one org instead of trying to shoot two of 'em and be competitive.

I DO disagree with the person who started this thread and placing all the blame for whatever was wrong with Bob Collins. A true Bob Bashing thread! Makes about as much sense in blaming him for some of the bad targets I shot last year. Bob didn't vote all those proposals in himself either. Mr. Cadillac Jack should have given Bob a call or emailed him if he wanted to voice his opinion. Bob usually answers the phone!
As Fudd said, I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't even own a dog?

PS- GAry I was kiddin' bout the snakes--I hate snakes!
Oh yeah Gary--I'll shoot sporters with you standing up in a canoe, if you got a canoe? You probably do:) We just gotta find a range with a lake or river.

Single Shot
01-13-2008, 08:32 PM
"Did you mean to say WE may want to re-think what has been done and figure out some way to keep the members WE have"

I stand corrected, see how easy it is to make a mistake, see also how easy it is to apologize, now how do WE correct things and make sure it doesn't happen again.
S/S

Rod Collins
01-13-2008, 08:34 PM
How about Single Shot for President of RBA 2009?

Single Shot
01-13-2008, 08:44 PM
Kent,
I agree, this could or maybe should have been handled privately between that person and Bob Collins, then "if" a satisfactory answer could not be had, bring it to the attention of the RBA members. I don't think Bob C. or any one person is to blame, if an un-justus was done to the general membership it was done by more than one person.
S/S

Single Shot
01-13-2008, 08:57 PM
"How about Single Shot for President of RBA 2009 ?"

Not a bad idea Rod, I've been around the block more than a few times and have been involved in many different Associations in an official capacity in the past 50 + years, and all were very successful, but not a good idea either, in the condition I'm in I may not be around in 2009.
S/S

Kent Owens
01-13-2008, 09:00 PM
SS,
When something is put on an open forum, you know how it works, all us ne'er do well's sitting round just gotta dive in there too, whether we have a horse in the race or not. I never could quite figure out whether the complaint was "lack of communication" or disapproval of the proposals? From a shooters point of view (and I use the term shooter loosely, the way I've been shootin') all of the proposals looked good. More shooting, chance to win some bucks, sensible sporter rules too. I just don't think Bob or any of the people who voted for those proposals were trying to ruin their organization. I know most all of those guys and they're all good people. I just can't sit idly by, gotta throw my 2 cents worth in.
I apologize for talking about Wilbur in the RBA thread. Maybe I should start a Wilbur bashing thread to even it out:)

Gary Lemons
01-13-2008, 09:05 PM
SS,
Please accept my heartfelt apologies for intruding on your thread. If it'll make you feel better, I can delete my post.

Gary

Kent Owens
01-13-2008, 09:09 PM
Gary,
It'd make me feel better if you'd call me! Do duh word "reamer" ring a bell?;)

cadillacjack
01-13-2008, 09:22 PM
Prior to making my initial post I called Bob Collins, Left a message asking for him to call me back. To present I still have not heard from him. He is the President of RBA; an obilgation he voluntarily and willingly accepted. At the very least in his position as President he should follow the bylaws of the organization he is running. This thread was not meant to be nor has it turned into a Bob Collins bashing. Rather, I believe when taken as a whole, it has been the most widely thought provoking discussion concerning the status of RBA. On this forum everyone has an opportunity to voice his/her opinion concerning RBA and its future.

Frankly in 2007 RBA membership declined; it appears headed for more decline in 2008. A number of clubs that shot RBA in 2006 quit shooting in 2007. Now once again it appears some clubs are intending to drop RBA for 2008. My intention with this post was to stop the bleeding and hopefully reunitify RBA shooters.

I want to thank each and every person that viewed or posted on this thread. At the very least it has brought to light that RBA has some serious problems that MUST be addressed , if RBA is to grow and flourish.

I would suggest a good President MUST listen to All members,allow All members to voice their opinion, mediate dissagreements and promote and encourage new members. Further, when a problem does arise, the President has a responsibility to become involved and attempt resolution.

I would suspect this is the most viewed and lengthly discission ever concerning the RBA. Yet, our President has not joined in this discussion and advised RBA Members of his point of view or how he anticipates resolving these important issues.

Single Shot
01-13-2008, 09:25 PM
Gary,
No apologies needed, and no need to delete your post. I only wanted to remind everyone that the thread was about RBA problems, not IR 50/50, in fact you didn't intrude on my thread as it's not my thread, it's cadillacjacks thread.S/S

Gary Lemons
01-13-2008, 09:42 PM
SS,
Actually since this is a public forum, it's anyone's thread to comment on until a moderator steps in and decides otherwise.

I think the point most were making, with respect to the IR5050 comments, is that an organization needs to listen to its shooters and go with what is best for the group overall.

Gary

Single Shot
01-13-2008, 09:46 PM
"our President has not joined in this discussion and advised RBA Members of his point of view or how he anticipates resolving these important issues"

cadillacjack,
"Our President" may not have replied to your call or joined in this discussion because he may not be near a phone or a computer at this time, I'm sure he will reply, he cant not reply to something like this as it's way to important. What surprises me is that the vice president or the Business Manager, or any other official has not responded. I may be wrong but It seems most of the MD that responded did so in a negative manner.
S/S

Single Shot
01-13-2008, 09:56 PM
"Actually since this is a public forum, it's anyone's thread to comment on until a moderator steps in and decides otherwise"

Ok,
That's fine, I just thought that it would be best to keep the thread on topic and that comments should be about RBA as that's what the thread was all about.
S/S

gordon gauge
01-14-2008, 12:09 AM
As a former member and RBA Match Director I would like to add my 2 cents to this discussion. IMO, Bob Collins was doing a good job during the time we were shooting RBA a few years back.

I never had a problem making contact with Bob, and he was quite helpful in getting us up and running.

Don't remember any shooters complaining about the rules, but we were green and probably wouldn't have spotted a loophole or biased rule anyways.

Sounds like things have changed for the worse, but sure hope they get straightened out as I was hoping to go back to RBA in the near future.

Perhaps a short term limit for BOD's and Officers might help, if there are enough folks willing to do the job instead of just complaining.........

JLG.
01-14-2008, 06:14 AM
I think the changes were made to try to increase shooter participation. If you have any other ideas on how to get more shooters, your thoughts would be welcome.

Rod some of the changes is what made two clubs in Ohio decide to shoot RBA unl.in 2008 as for the sporter rules it dont mean anything to me you all can have them little 6x scopes and the cost of ammo is going sky high I couldnt afford to feed another gun anyways.But I do see the rule change saving new shooters hundreds of dollars over a clip feed gun.The way I see it is a suhl action is a hell of a lot cheaper than a Hall nothing against halls actions they are nice but a 52d cmp or one of the new suhls are cheaper???? We will try Rba for a year and see how all the shooters like it and then in 2009 we will only be shooting 1 org. and thats it.For the shooters by the shooters dont get any better than that. Jerry

langenc
01-14-2008, 11:11 AM
Bill Myers-as to new records with new equip--look at poor baseball. Ty Cobb and the Babe made their records in 120 or so games. Now the steroid users get 164 or so??? AND in between there were (are) records from 140 games.

Doug
01-14-2008, 11:19 AM
My Two Cents!
The Last thing I would expect would be Anyone in an Official Capacity with RBA to venture into THIS thread. Threads like this do not belong on a public forum that is meant to support Rimfire Benchrest. They do a lot more harm & very little good. :(

billyg
01-14-2008, 11:29 AM
I can speak from some experience from many years ago shooting a sport,IHMSA, that was run by a dictatorship with member input and ideas. This dictator was very well off financially and put a Lot of money into a sport he enjoyed he could have spent the money shooting some more elephants,lions,record sheep or whatever.
He made up the rules and ENFORCED them rigidly, with RARE changes. It worked but the shooters griped and complained about the lack of input on equipment etc.
Wilbur is not a dictator. He is a manager.He lets people bounce ideas around and then mentors a concensus plan. open to change. I only find fault with the format.
If the sporter discussion had taken place in the Southern part of the country it would have probably ended much the same as the present RBA rule seems to have done. But there were some vocal and insistent shooters such as Dave who did not want the rule changed because of some idea of tradition and Milt and records etc. The sure way to hinder progress in a sport is to bury your head in sand and talk about the tradition as the most important factor in making changes happen. If the subject is brought up again at next Nationals it may be changed.
But at the least enforce the rules as they are now.Check the sporters for function,safety and stock rules and enforce them or forget them.
As far as RBA, I do not know Bob and do not know about the money end or the other areas of dissention but the changes do not seem to be contrary the good of the sport idea. Bob seems to be the lightning rod and is taking a lot of hits justly or not.
But a idea as to another reason of decline of RBA matches at least in our area is that a MD has to run 2 matches IR and RBA, too much for a single person to take on. A Sat. of 7am till 4-5 pm is a long day of being a MD and handling all the problems and duties.
Wilbur, since this seems to be a chance to address some ideas, IR that is, how about up to 2 matches per month at a range?
each range getting a double point match once a year, a challenge match ?? and an agg. list of say 15 matches as well as the regulat List champ???????????
Keep on managing Wilbur, I think you are doing a for the best of the sport good job.

Bill Myers
01-14-2008, 05:15 PM
billyg -- It wouldn't have mattered where the IR 5050 Nationals were held last year, the sporter rules would not have changed. A suggestion was made the year before last at Kettlefoot to change the sporter rules (Dave Shattuck was nowhere in sight) and they didn't pass. Suggestions were made at two consecutive Nationals at Leetown several years ago and they didn't pass. Some variation on a sporter rule change has been put forth at just about every Nationals I can remember, going back to 1995 and there's been little movement since the first couple of years when custom sporters were allowed. Just about the same people attend the Nationals every year, no matter where they live -- and a majority of them have a similar mindset about not wanting changes and that is what the vote at the end of this years' discussion demonstrated. For those who don't want to consider tradition or the history supporting a particular class, then go with the RBA sporter and enjoy, but please leave the IR 5050 sporter rules alone.

Inez

Single Shot
01-14-2008, 05:55 PM
Doug,
Are you saying that RBA members should keep quite, be kept in the dark, and not have any input as to what the rules of there RBA association should be.

I agree that it may have been a bit premature of cadillacjack to bring this problem in front of the members before he got an answer from Bob C., but it's way to late to cover this up now.

There is a chance to make it right, in fact there's a chance to make it even better, and that would be a good thing for the shooters, but not if the officials hide from the members, all that will do is make the members run away from RBA.
S/S

Rod Collins
01-14-2008, 05:59 PM
What are your suggestion to make it even better?

PThree
01-14-2008, 06:06 PM
There is an old saying: "that we are too soon old and too slow smart".

With that as a preface, I would like to comment on the RBA situation. I believe that the main problem with RBA is the lack of communications between the Board and the rank and file members. Whether or not this problem is agenda driven political games by a few players or simply incompetency remains to be seen.

This will be my fourth year of shooting in RBA matches. It is also my first, and probably last, as an RBA Match Director. At the conclusion of this season's matches, I will be recommending to our club members that we switch either to IR 50 or ARA sanctioned matches. At least with those organizations, shooters will know up front where they stand as individual members.

I am simply too old and and not smart enough to figure out how to fix RBA's problem(s).

Very wet in the Northwest, ( Yes, I know that some Alpha-Hotel will say I am all wet!)
Paul Steinman

cadillacjack
01-14-2008, 07:11 PM
I had the opportunity to speak with Bob Collins today and was informed the problem was not with him but rather the match directors. He explained that he sent a letter to each and every match director last October. He advised that the letter explained the issues to be voted upon were contained in this letter and it was the responsibility of the match directors to seek input from each of their members an then vote accordingly. I have personally heard from some directors and read the posts of some others and apparently they have ALL forgotten about this letter sent by Bob Collins in his capacity as President of RBA.

Further, I asked if I could see a copy of the finiancial records of the RBA and was informed I had No right to them as a shooter, but they WOULD BE AVAILABLE TO MATCH DIRECTORS. The reason for the WOULD BE is that they won't be available until at Least April 15th due to personel time constraints.

Next I asked if I could have a copy of the minutes of the past meeting when the vote was taken. Bob advised they were not as yet prepared and was not sure when they would be available.

We lastly discussed this thread. I told him the issues raised have at the very least generated a great interest in the opperation of RBA. He advised; many of the people who have posted are not even members and as such they have no say in the matter. I suggested we (RBA members) reopen the issues passed for reconsideration. He didn't think that was a good idea. As for the a solid action vs,one with a clipslot he said it would have no effect on accuracy.

In closing, Bob advised that he HAD NOT READ THIS THREAD and he had no interest in reading it. "THE VOTE HAS ALREADY BEEN TAKEN'

Single Shot
01-14-2008, 07:27 PM
Rod,
An apology to the members from the officials who caused the problems would not hurt, and putting things back the way they were till the association members and MD's have more time to work things out, that may go a long way to making things even better as it could restore members faith in the officials. The next thing that has to be done is listen to your MD's such as Paul Steinman and a bunch of others that have expressed there dissatisfaction with the way things are going. So far it seems that no officials are paying attention to the members or the MD's.

Like Paul has said, communications with ALL the members would go a long way.

Looks like the RBA just lost another MD and a club out in Olympia,Wa. how many more will it take before the powers that be take some action to make things right.
S/S

Fudd
01-14-2008, 07:50 PM
The shooters own RBA and everyone that is a members has a right to the financial report PEROID. The set-up with RBA is that the orginization will start the year with $2000 in the bank and will end the year with $2000 in the bank. All money above the $2000 that is to be left in the bank at the end of the year is used toward standing prizes. All of the finances should have been calculated to see how much to use for the standing prizes that were given away at the Jan. match. The financials of RBA are OPEN to ALL MEMBERS to keep everything out in front and honest.

Thanks,

Scott

Single Shot
01-14-2008, 08:43 PM
cadillacjack,
It's very hard to believe that ALL of the MD's forgot about the "letter", maybe all the letters got "lost" in the mail.

It's been said that RBA is a North Carolina Not-for-Profit Corporation, owned by the membership, but you are saying that a dues paying member has no right to see a copy of the financial records and they may not even exist at this time, and a copy of the minutes of the past meeting are not available and did not know when they would be available ?.

Your saying that he has not read this thread and has no interest in reading it, and that many of the guys that posted are not RBA members, now if he hasn't read any of the post how does he know who are members and who are not members, even if that's so it should not matter because many, many, of the guys that posted ARE members and are MD's, it's unbelievable, the President of any association should be paying attention to what guys are saying about their association, even if there not members, otherwise the RBA may not be getting any new members because of the way officials treat their members that ask questions.

Does anyone know if any money has been donated to this "Not-for-Profit Corporation"
This does not sound good for a Not-for-Profit Corporation.
S/S

PThree
01-14-2008, 09:23 PM
I just finished reading Fred's message about his response from Bob Collins concerning RBA's recent actions. My blood pressure is still boiling! God must not have liked my first attempt to respond to Collin's answers to Fred as we experienced a 30 second power outage that killed my message. I guess it was better for my message to get killed rather than to threaten bodily harm. I really thought the idea of a duel sounded great since Bob Collins is the one who slapped me in the face, giving me the choice of weapons. Well, the good Lord and my wife have prevailed.

To set the record straight, THIS Match Director did not receive any correspondence from RBA until January 2nd or 3rd. At that time I received a letter dated December 27, 2007 enclosing a copy of the October 20, 2007 minutes and a copy of the proposed agenda items for the January 5th board meeting.

There are at least two things I cannot tolerate: 1) Knowingly shaking hands with a socialist Democrat and 2) Taking the blame for someone else's incompetency.

Obviously, we are not getting the whole truth folks!!! Too much game playing for this old guy!

Effectively IMMEDIATELY, Capitol City Rifle and Pistol Club severs ALL CONNECTIONS with RBA. Please disregard any 2008 RBA Match Schedule shown on the web site.

What a way to begin the New Year!
Paul Steinman

Fred K
01-14-2008, 09:37 PM
I would like to point out I'm not that Fred.
Fred K

Rod Collins
01-14-2008, 11:18 PM
Don't you think that questions about the business of RBA should be address to the Business Manager of RBA?

ThaiBoxer
01-14-2008, 11:32 PM
...Capitol City Rifle and Pistol Club severs ALL CONNECTIONS with RBA...Paul, I hope you'll reconsider. If I don't get another of my twice annual chances to shoot over "The Pit" this season, I'll likely give up the ghost.
:)

Single Shot
01-15-2008, 12:26 AM
"Don't you think that questions about the business of RBA should be address to the Business Manager of RBA ?"

Well,
OK lets hear from the Business Manager. Being that Scott H. ( Fudd ) said that,

"The financials of RBA are OPEN to ALL MEMBERS to keep everything out in front and honest",

now that's a good thing, but cadillacjack was told no way would he see the financial records of the RBA, and even the MD's would have to wait about 90 days before they would be available, what could be so complicated about a report telling where the money came from and where it went ?. Again, something is not right here.

But I do believe that the President is the one that is the top person in the RBA Not-for-Profit Corporation, and that the Business Manager only does what the President says. Or do they do things different in RBA, bottom line, with the don't tell the members anything attitude that the officials have had so far, things don't look good for the Not-for-Profit Corporation of RBA.

Come on officials, get with it, the members are asking some very important questions about the financial statues of the RBA Corporation and the minutes of the past meeting. This is getting really discouraging, thinking that we have officials that will not answer or don't want to deal with the members questions.

Well it's bedtime for me, hopefully when I get up in the morning and I turn the computer all this will be gone away and I'll think it must have been a bad dream.
S/S

GordonE
01-15-2008, 04:30 AM
Joe, Give It A Rest. Stirring this pot will NOT help RBA.

Fred K
01-15-2008, 08:49 AM
Paul
Don't rush to change your status. Remember water seeks it level. All of this will soon pass away. RBA is good, maybe a few operational changes will make it better.
Fred K

Single Shot
01-15-2008, 10:19 AM
"when I get up in the morning and turn on the computer all this will be gone away and I'll think it must have been a bad dream"

Well,
Everything is still here, and still no positive responses from the officials.
I guess it wasn't a bad dream, and the shooters will have to live with the way things are.
S/S

PThree
01-15-2008, 10:40 AM
This whole thing is NOT about what was done, but HOW IT WAS DONE!

Through incompetency or devious game playing, RBA members have been excluded from the decision making process of the organization.

Capitol City Rifle & Pistol Club is in the process of requesting sanctioning from USRA-IR5050. At least with that organization each member knows up front where he stands with the decision making process.

As far as I am concerned RBA has lost its integrity.

Hope all you shooters have a great year!
Paul

Rod Collins
01-15-2008, 11:23 AM
It is insanity, to thinking you are going to get the answers you want from this thread. You should call or email RBA and ask your questions. You are working with second hand information and jumping to conclusions.

glynn angle
01-15-2008, 11:28 AM
I was a rimfire match director from the very early ninety's until turning it over to others last year. Back in 2000 the problems with IR 50-50 forced some of us to form a new Org. RBA. That first year we only had 6 0r 7 clubs shooting RBA but things grew nicely because thing were done very well. H.L. Wickham agreed to be the first president & Scott Hamilton vice-president. Not because they wanted the jobs but because they were asked to serve . They were chosen because they are honorable men with no agenda to promote. After a few years Scott agreed to run for President. They both served in a fair & open way. Some thought they should do more & after "hard campaigning" Bob Collins was elected the new President. After a year of Collins our Virginia club switched to IR 50-50, now under good management. I say to the RBA match directors who supported the election of Collins, you got what you think you wanted. "put it in your pipe & smoke it". To Rod Collins who keeps asking what changes would be better. SIMPLE....Don't change the rules to please a few & return to providing a NEWSLETTER. Don't think for a minute that Bob Collins doesn't read every post here. For RBA to survive now in any meaningful way would require a MIRACLE. Glynn Angle

cadillacjack
01-15-2008, 12:03 PM
Rod, Why is it insane to expect our leader to come to this forum? Here he would have an opportunity to address the entire membership of RBA. By doing so his message would be FIRST HAND thus, he could explain the vote and ALL OTHER ISSUES DISCUSSED ON THIS FORUM. It certainly would be easier for him to adress all at once, rather than having to deal with each shooter individually. Further, ALL members and shooters would would hear exactly the same story concerning the history and notice surrounding the vote taken at the indoor nationals, why shooters are not allowed to see the finical records of the RBA,and why the minutes of the meeting are not available to all shooters.

Why in the world are these expectations insane??? He should be glad to come before his membership and all rimfire shooters telling us RBA is an organization for the shooters by the shooters; always was and always will be. Obviously, this is not the case, apparently he belives, by sticking his head in the sand ignoring the members,shooters and all that have viewed and posted; this will all blow over.

THERE IS NO RATIONAL NOR REASONABLE EXPLANATION FOR HIM NOT COMMING FORWARD AND EXPLAIN HIS ACTIONS CONCERNING HIS ADMINISTRATION OF RBA.

GordonE
01-15-2008, 12:14 PM
The most rational and reasonable reason not to bother with this is.
This Thread has been viewed over 5,000 times. There is a small group of sore asses posting on it in a negative manner. Some of which have never been to a RBA match.

cclfn
01-15-2008, 12:14 PM
It is insanity, to thinking you are going to get the answers you want from this thread. You should call or email RBA and ask your questions. You are working with second hand information and jumping to conclusions.

Rod,

I can't believe you have brought this up twice. I am a MD and I have both called and written RBA before this thread was even started. In fact I wrote to you also and you have not replied. You know very well there is no communication here and you also know that the business manager is doing what she is directed to do by the President Bob Collins. Maybe you can talk him into answering some of my questions. Maybe you could answer my email too, rather than post something on this forum indicating that somehow there is a formal communication going on behind the scenes. I don't need to air my dirty laundry on a public forum but our president has seen fit to use this as the only place a match director gets any information about all these changes.

If the only information one gets is off this forum, then it can't be second hand information.

Wes King
Oregon MD RBA

cclfn
01-15-2008, 12:26 PM
The most rational and reasonable reason not to bother with this is.
This Thread has been viewed over 5,000 times. There is a small group of sore asses posting on it in a negative manner. Some of which have never been to a RBA match.

Gordon,

I am not a sore ass, I am a RBA Match Director and there is currently no other form of communication going on. How do I say that in a positive manner. This forum is not going to resolve these issues but maybe it will get people curious to enough to call their RBA Match directors and find out what is really going on. On the other hand it may just be a small minority that care to question these decisions at all.

Wes King

Single Shot
01-15-2008, 12:30 PM
"You should call or email RBA and ask your questions. You are working with second hand information and jumping to conclusions"

I was going to jump out of this but guess I have to much time on my hands. One thing for sure, I will not be a member of RBA in the future unless this mess is taken care of.

Rod, what are you talking about, you cant get any higher than the President of RBA and cadillacjack talked to him, if the Info he got from the top was not correct that means that the President of RBA does not know what's going on or what he's talking about. Is that what your saying ?, the President of RBA is handing out second hand Info ?.
SS

Single Shot
01-15-2008, 01:58 PM
"This Thread has been viewed over 5,000 times. There is a small group of sore asses posting on it in a negative manner. Some of which have never been to a RBA match"

GordonE,
Your correct, this thread has been viewed over 5,000 times, the only other ones that seem to get that many hits are the Calfee threads.

Obviously guys are interested or it would not have that many hits along with over 85 replies, even the Calfee thread only has a bit over 55 replies. I'm only going to guess at this because I don't want to go count them, but I'm betting that well over 70 % of the replies are negative and from different people. With that kind of response it seems that most members feel that something is wrong. Worst yet, it doesn't seem to be getting fixed and this is not good for any Association.

Your probably also correct in the fact that some of the guys posting may have never been to an RBA match, but the way things have been done, and the way things are going, there may not be many that would want to go. This is not the way to get guys interested in joining RBA
SS

GordonE
01-15-2008, 02:30 PM
Joe, The last i knew you shot a lot of pistol when you worked for Hamerli. I met you at the first ARA match that you went to a couple years ago. To date i can't find where you have even shot 50 ARA targets. Also i doubt that you ever shot in a RBA match or 50-50 for that matter. What you don't seam to get is That 5000 hits verses 85 replies. Means that there must be a lot more happier people than unhappy. You are one of the few that have NOTHING INVESTD AND YOU RUN YOUR MOUTH ABOUT HOW THINGS SHOULD BE DONE. It could be time to find something else to entertain yourself with.
GE

cadillacjack
01-15-2008, 02:58 PM
Gordon I don't know you or what organization you are a member of, but all persons input is welcome on this thread. The free flow of information is how problems are worked out.

GordonE
01-15-2008, 03:30 PM
Jack, I don't Know you either. But the way This thread started. You Got your Panties in a wad over the Sporter Rule. Now you want to take down RBA. Do you work for Hillery Clinton?

Single Shot
01-15-2008, 03:42 PM
Gordon,
I'm surprised at your response to this. No need to get nasty about it.

Yes I shot a lot of International Olympic Pistol, all over the world, now that I'm old and worn out I thought I would try some shootin where I could set down to shoot.

You were very, very, helpful at the ARA matches, then for what ever reason you quit shooting ARA because of something about ARA not having a level playing field, or because of some cheating going on or something like that, I'm not sure at this time what it was but I can check my old e mails to refresh my memory if need be,

Well anyway it was because of the way you down graded ARA that I quit shooting ARA and am now looking for the game that has a fair and level playing field, so far I guess I haven't found it. No one has to be a rocket scientist to see that the way RBA is being run is a bad thing for it's members, probably worse than ARA at this time as I've been told that ARA has done something about the way it was being run. The only thing I can say about your nasty remark is that you must have something invested in RBA, sorry if I stepped on your investment.

Yes, I'll keeping looking for the game with the level playing field, maybe I'll go back to ARA now that they have changed things a bit, one thing for sure, if this is the way the officials treat there members I probably wont be shooting RBA.

Over the past 50 years I've competed all over the world and have been an official in many, many, different Associations, never have I seen this kind of thing going on. Some of this stuff is a disgrace to the shooting sports. Again, sorry if I got you upset or stepped on your investment.
SS

Dennis D.
01-15-2008, 03:42 PM
Okay, I'm responsible for a few of the 5000 or so hits but haven't posted because it's all been pretty well covered. I talk with my MD all the time and he sure didn't know about the rule change. And yes, Fred is upset about the fact that we RBA members weren't notified about the upcomming rules changes that might just affect the guns we buy to play the game, and rightfully so. I base my guns on the rules to get every advantage allowable, I need all the help I can get! As members we had no input and that is what I thought RBA was suppose to be about from it's formation. Just because I didn't get on here to bitch about it doesn't mean I like it but there are plenty of other venues to play if I were that upset.

Dennis DiFeo

GordonE
01-15-2008, 03:53 PM
OK Joe You want to check old EMails I got one from you about The Scotty Herbert ARA thread. I think you are into this one for the same reason that you were into that one. You stated to me that you didn't want anyone to know who you are. Your doctor told you that typing would be good for your eye sight. You stated that you were having a little fun. Your negative posts can hurt people when you are having a little fun. Try typing a letter to Dear Abby.

cadillacjack
01-15-2008, 03:55 PM
With all your hollier than thou rambling; I just looked on the RBA member list and guess what YOU ARE NOT AN RBA MEMBER. Thus, based on your earlier posts one would wonder why YOU are spout'in off on this thread. I'd vote for HILLARY LONG BEROFE I'D VOTE FOR YOU!!! You seem to be a perfect politican; you have no conviction; you say one thing(only members and directors are important to these issues) yet here you are neither a member or match director. Either you have no pride or aren't very smart.

GordonE
01-15-2008, 04:17 PM
I may not be a member but at least i have shot in a RBA match. Just for your records. I drove 18 hours to Corlele Georgia to shoot in a match. HAD the time of my life, Met a a bunch of FRIENDLY HAPPY RBA SHOOTERS. One of the best matches ever. Also for your records the same people were running it then as that are now. And if i can i will shoot more RBA matches. Lets get back to the Sporters. I shoot one in 3 gun. It has a clip That i don't use and a saftey that i don't use. Now it DON"T bother me one bit if every shooter in the world gets a new gun without either. If i think i need one then i will get it.
Now Jackey For the record I WOULDN"T VOTE FOR YOU EITHER.

Single Shot
01-15-2008, 04:23 PM
Gordon,
Again, no need to get nasty or smart mouth about this.

I have nothing to hide when it comes to what I post, the reason I got into the Scotty Herbert ARA thread was because of you and Scotty not likening the way things were, if you guys remember I was on your side on that issue and was one of the reasons I quit ARA. My stating that I didn't want anyone to know who I was, was because of my Hammerli connection, nothing more than that nothing less.

I have nothing to hide but did not want to have to start answering e mails about Hammerli, thanks for nothing.

Yes, I'm in bad shape, eyes are not coming along very good but would still like to shoot. Yes it may be a little fun for some but it's also serious for the majority of the members. As far as negative post, they are only negative when they need be, you should know all about that from the ARA problem.

Maybe you should try Dr. Phil, he may be able to help if you have a problem with what I have said.
SS

cadillacjack
01-15-2008, 04:54 PM
Gordon I've looked in the RBA archives and can't find when you last shot. Tell us so we may see just how active you are in the RBA. You admit you're not a member nor a director so what's your stake in these issues? You seem to tell every person not involved in RBA to quiet down; now tell this thread why you don't take your own advice.

Rod Collins
01-15-2008, 05:07 PM
Tell me if this is the problem... at the RBA annual meeting (held at the same time for the last few years) a vote was taken and passed by the match directors.
Now some are not happy and want to redo the vote. If you feel so strongly about this you should bring this up at the next meeting. If you want you can nominate a new President and Vice President for next year. The current President and Vice President were unopposed this year. They must be doing something right.

Mad`
01-15-2008, 05:29 PM
In our car club and motorcycle club, we usually elect someone president who for some reason couldn't show up for the meeting. Gives everyone a taste of being the Pres. and also encourages people to show up for the meetings so they don't take it in the shorts for the next presidential appointment.
Dale McClure

cadillacjack
01-15-2008, 05:37 PM
Rod, the problem is your Brother refuses to address the problems at hand. As President he has a responsibility as well as an obligation to explain his actions to all RBA members, shooters and match directors. If he is unable to or unwilling to do so, he is avoiding his duty and should resign from office; thereby allowing the RBA to go forth and resolve these issues under a President that IS willing to listen and respond to the members and directors of RBA.

Doug
01-15-2008, 06:18 PM
HEY GIRLS - GET A LIFE!

and quit trying to destroy a Rimfire Benchrest!
Doug Weeter
RBA, IR50/50, ARA, WRBF, UKBR, AUS-RBA, IBS, NBRSA, ERABSF, FSA

Savannah, GA USA
(912) 659-6300

ProneShooter
01-15-2008, 07:15 PM
This kind of reminds me of some of the old Stump based threads.
I enjoy the RBA matches that I get to shoot and understand the need to change the sporter rules to give us more choices of actions and triggers. I still like my Sako/jewel combo and don't plan to buy another. It out shoots me every time I pull the trigger.

Wilbur
01-15-2008, 08:32 PM
Glad Y'all kinda slowed down a little...

ThaiBoxer
01-15-2008, 08:56 PM
There are some seriously pissed off MDs on the West Coast, and I'm NOT one of them. All of those whom I know are nice fellows.

Instead of RBA inner ring of good ol boys circling the wagons for a standoff, I'd sure like to see some phone calls be made. I like the target a lot, and would like to shoot it this year.

M LOVAN SMITH
01-15-2008, 09:33 PM
Glad Y'all kinda slowed down a little...

I COULD ALMOST VISUALIZE YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER!!!




SMITTY

ruger Rob
01-15-2008, 11:03 PM
Tell me if this is the problem... at the RBA annual meeting (held at the same time for the last few years) a vote was taken and passed by the match directors.
Now some are not happy and want to redo the vote. If you feel so strongly about this you should bring this up at the next meeting. If you want you can nominate a new President and Vice President for next year. The current President and Vice President were unopposed this year. They must be doing something right.


Rod,

This is exactly the problem. The RBA is no longer a group of good old boys deciding the organizations fate after a match is done at one event. We are an organization that stretches from coast to coast that is supposed to be by the shooters for the shooters. If every thing is on the up and up like you say, then tell me how many match directors attended the annual meeting? Did you have 25% of the RBA Membership present? Where proxy votes from the west coast considered? SHOW ME
I am to new at this to have a beef with anybody, I realize that Bob is a volunteer and I commend him for his efforts it is difficult to please everybody. However changes like this should require a ballot given to match directors. If anybody wants to know what my stake is , I am RBA match director who doesn’t want to go through the trouble of finding a new game to shoot this season. So lets work something out.

Rod Collins
01-16-2008, 07:24 AM
The west coast votes were counted.

cadillacjack
01-16-2008, 08:51 AM
You the mouthpiece for the RBA or your brother? The members and directors are entitled to hear from the president. He sure must have a lot to hide. What organization in the world, would support a President that in the time of CRISIS goes into a hole and is not heard from??

The RBA has lost one club and no one knows how many members and shooters.I'm aware of several more clubs that are considering dropping RBA from their schedule; Yet Bob Collins does nothing!!

You asked earlier "Whats the problem?" THE PROBLEM IS BOB COLLINS!!!!

Don Stith
01-16-2008, 09:20 AM
Rod was not at the match ,so I doubt he attended the meeting.
Don

Wilbur
01-16-2008, 10:22 AM
Your point appears valid and I'm sure is well taken. Sometimes it takes a little while to iron things out. At this stage, and under the circumstances, Bob would be outta his ever lovin' mind to even consider addressing the issue on this forum.

Kinda like those guys at the rodeo playing cards and they let a mean assed bull loose. At some point...it makes sense not to be there.

Smitty - I pulled the trigger once already but crossfired on a Hillary post in the General Discussion forum. My mouse is only 3 power and convex where it touches the mouse pad.

steve b.
01-16-2008, 10:30 AM
This has been an interesting discussion.

Let's give Bob some time to get his ducks in a row, and see what we can do to correct some communication issues.

We had a big beef with ARA some time back, and while Mackie did come out and address some issues, he was extended the courtsey of time to do so. Let's do the same for Bob.

I see some good issues being brought forth, but shaking the tree too hard can knock it down. It's not like new ranges are opening left and right, and our numbers are not growning by leaps and bounds. Let's move though this with cool heads and protect our numbers.

We should not loose a single shooter because of these issues.

PThree
01-16-2008, 11:25 AM
Don,

What a small world, I grew up in Sandston in the early 50's. Soloed in my first airplane the summer of 1958 at Byrd Field. Did a lot of Civil War relic searching in that area as a kid.

We went back to that area a few years ago, planning to spend a few days but things had changed SO MUCH that with tears in my eyes we left after only a couple of hours. That old saying about "You can't go back" was true in my case. Too many changes, too many places and memories destroyed.

Hope you have a great season shooting.
Paul

Rod Collins
01-16-2008, 12:18 PM
I don't think you will get anyone from RBA on this thread. I have tried to help but to no avail, so I give up...Rod

PThree
01-16-2008, 03:59 PM
Come on Shooters,

Go to Wes King's (cclfn) thread (New Shooters) and put some positive vibes out there for new shooters. As a shooting community we need to show how much we love this sport and what an enjoyable sport it is inspite of this RBA turmoil!

Have a great day and a great shooting season!
Paul

cclfn
01-16-2008, 07:18 PM
I canít leave this post with out saying a few things to clear the air.

All these post were created because of a lack of communication and an apparent disregard for the bylaws and procedures of the RBA organization.

Rod Collins as an RBA Match Director you have not helped at all. I was told you werenít at that meeting so how do you know what votes were counted, and who said somebody wants a re-vote. Do you know something that the rest of the Match Directors donít? There are bylaws to deal with rule changes but donít you think the match directors should know what changes were made before you start making remarks that are only partially true. Where are you getting your information? I sure havenít been able to get any.

I was a RBA Match Director until today, and I asked you, your brother, and every other match director who was there or not, to explain what happened at the meeting and to date with the exception of the west coast MDís I heard nothing. I know for a fact that five MDís that I spoke with did not get any ďOctoberĒ notice of changes and they have not heard anything about the what took place at the meeting either. That is not acceptable in my opinion and I have decided to shoot other venues this year. I can not help run RBA if there is no exchange of information, and what you and your brother have chosen to share on this web site does not impress me. It also makes it impossible for me to conduct my duties as a Match Director.

I enjoyed shooting RBA, but this unexplained conduct by the leadership of RBA is more frustration than I want to deal with. My club will shoot IR50/50, ARA, and USBR this year and I wish RBA the best of luck.

Anyone that is out this way is welcome to come enjoy shooting with us.

Wes King
Emerald Empire Gun Club
Oregon

Dave S
01-16-2008, 07:51 PM
Wilbur:

I think it is time for the "DELETE" button..

Dave

Bill Wynne
01-16-2008, 08:41 PM
I have no dog in this fight and I have nothing against RBA. I shoot 50/50. It occurs to me that this thread is not the way to fix anything. What I see is an small number of malcontents (that may be the wrong word but close) with too much time on their hands. Rod's statement about kissing is predictable.

If I were running RBA I wouldn't care a bit about losing a few select shooters so the rest can go ahead and have fun.

It is now time for cooler heads.

I hope that I have not delayed the natural death of this thread.