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View Full Version : scratch on neck with Redding bushing? why?



SanQ
01-10-2008, 12:35 AM
http://members.shaw.ca/sanq/DSC00990.jpg

I started to resize the neck on a brand new box of lapua 6br brass. after about 5 or 6 brass when thru redding competition neck sizing die with .268 bushing. scratches started to show on the neck. what happened? would it affect the accuracy? how to fix it? or do I need to fix it?

the bushing and die are all brand new.

please help:confused:

SanQ
01-10-2008, 12:53 AM
btw: I tried cleaning the bushing with paper, made sure there was no dirt.doesnt help

Big Al
01-10-2008, 01:41 AM
I see a new carbide bushing in your future.:D

John Kielly
01-10-2008, 02:07 AM
I did have a similar neck pattern on hunting brass years ago when using standard loading dies. In that case it turned out that I had gotten something imbedded in the junction between the neck & the shoulder - presumbaly residue from the powder or primers. I had to polish it out before the die was any use again.

However, in your case, I wonder if it isn't an issue with the brass as well. I've noticed my .308 W brass has striations inside the neck when brand new from their manufacture process. I have to get rid of it by running my K & M .310 expander plug into the neck before it will slide onto the mandrel of my Lee collet die.

If your external scores correspond with the same internal characteristic, maybe it's a combination of bushing friction & neck irregularity.

Joe
01-10-2008, 06:28 AM
Do you have your bushing in the die upside down?
The numbers should be "up".
To the best of my knowledge, the bushings are very slightly tapered and have a bit more of a lead radius on the bottom side.

Mike Swartz
01-10-2008, 06:44 AM
That doesn't look like a brass problem. I would be more inclined to look for a sharp edge on one side of the bushing.
Look at the edges of the hole woth a 10x magnifier and see if there is a slight burr on the edge. I have never seen this with Redding bushings. Try a case with a small amount of Imperial sizing wax on the neck. If the edge is sharp polish the edge slightly with very fine crocus cloth.

Mike Swartz

OMJ
01-10-2008, 08:24 AM
I see a new carbide bushing in your future.:D

Big Al
Not to go off topic here but I have been wondering about carbide bushings, mostly where would anyone get the carbide bushings? Thanks for your help!
PM me if you want?
Jack
P.S. I have nitriate coated bushings I think?

ScottD
01-10-2008, 08:37 AM
I don't think it is the bushing. The bushings are rounded on both ends and anyway they do not size that far down the neck usually.

Try taking the bushing out completely and run the brass through - I bet it still does it. Something is wrong with the die - not the bushing.

Scott

BJS6
01-10-2008, 01:34 PM
I'm with Scott,

If the bushing was doing that you wouldn't need to ask here why the brass had scratches, it would be obvious when looking at the bushing.

I'd guess something is amiss with the die or the diameter of the neck (maybe you expanded them up first or something ??) and the case neck is hitting the edge of the hole at the top of the shoulder section in the die, not enough clearance or some rough burrs.

Bryce

Michael Sherman
01-10-2008, 01:40 PM
Is it set-up so the bushing is allowed to float inside the die?

rcheek
01-10-2008, 02:05 PM
Looks to me like the necks need to be turned down to about .270 then sized.

twalker
01-10-2008, 02:21 PM
http://members.shaw.ca/sanq/DSC00990.jpg

I started to resize the neck on a brand new box of lapua 6br brass. after about 5 or 6 brass when thru redding competition neck sizing die with .268 bushing. scratches started to show on the neck. what happened? would it affect the accuracy? how to fix it? or do I need to fix it?

the bushing and die are all brand new.

please help:confused:

Take the button out and insert the neck of the case from the top. See if it enters easily into the clearance hole. If it doesn't, the die body itself is doing the sizing and you need to open up the clearance hole.

Lynn
01-10-2008, 02:38 PM
First off if you take the bushing out the case won't touch anything at all inside of the die.And yes you can size a 6BR neck that much.

The brass you are working on needs to be sized down with a bigger bushing first then use the bushing you are using now.The chamfer on Redding bushings is almost non-existent and your brass is catching.If you do like Mike Swartz said and put some Imperial Wax on the necks it will help alot.Also outside chamfering your cases first will help.

I neck down 375 H-H brass for my 300 Ackley and figured I could just buy a couple bushings evenly spaced to do the job.No way at all can you do it like that.If you go more than 0.004 at a time you'll get those scratches.I've probaly got around 12 sets of Redding bushing dies and a huge stack of various sized bushings and if you exceed 0.005 you'll collapse the case on every one of them.
Lynn

BJS6
01-10-2008, 03:07 PM
I just can't see any way that a bush that looks normal, tight or otherwise, could do that to a case neck, no matter how far you are trying to size the neck down, even with no lube.

Look at the marks, they are made by a sharp edge, there is just no way a normal bush can do that, even if tight. For the bush to do that it would be obvious looking at the bush, it would be rough.

One possibility is if the bush is used with no lube and has picked up brass and the brass adhering to the inside of the bush is doing the damage.

I think the case is dragging in the die, it shouldn't but it could be. Is it by chance a 22BR die with bigger bushes, they may be the same die anyway but it is a possibility.

Like has been said, run a case into the die with no bush and you will very quickly prove where the problem is.

Bryce

Lynn
01-10-2008, 03:39 PM
Bryce if you remove the bushing from the die there is nothing inside the die can possibly touch the cases neck.You are left with a huge empty space.

If you don't think the blunt end of a case hitting the blunt end of a bushing will cause scratches try this experiment.Take a brand new case neck it down and seat a bullet without doing any chamfering at all.You'll probaly end up with a bullet jacket full of scratches.

It works the same way with bushings.If you don't chamfer them or use a big enough size.The carbide bushings work better because they are much slicker for lack of a better word.
Lynn

Jay, Idaho
01-10-2008, 03:40 PM
I'm with Scott,

If the bushing was doing that you wouldn't need to ask here why the brass had scratches, it would be obvious when looking at the bushing.

I'd guess something is amiss with the die or the diameter of the neck (maybe you expanded them up first or something ??) and the case neck is hitting the edge of the hole at the top of the shoulder section in the die, not enough clearance or some rough burrs.

Bryce

This sounds like the problem. The hole at the top of the shoulder is smaller than the neck diameter of the new brass. Run a case into the die and back out WITHOUT a bushing in place. I'll bet the marks will be on the case.
I have opened up Redding Bushing dies in this area for special purposes. A friend built a .338 WSM using a neck/throater reamer and a 300 WSM reamer to do the chamber. I opened up a 300 WSM die in the area in question and the die is now a .338 WSM FL bushing die.

ScottD
01-10-2008, 03:50 PM
Go to here and look at the cut-away of the die.

http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/compbushneckdie.html

See this area of the die just above the shoulder, but below the bushing. The neck has to go through this hole to reach the bushing. (clearance hole)

So if you take the bushing out and size a case you can see if the neck clearance hole is too small.

I am not saying it is definitely not the bushing - it could be a bad bushing....i am just guessing it is the other.

Scott

Lynn
01-10-2008, 03:57 PM
Jay I just looked at two 6BR neck dies and a 22BR neck die made by Redding.I even put the bushing from the 6BR die into the 22BR die.There isn't anything in there to hit at all without the bushing in place.The sliding sleeve has a very small restriction in it to catch the bushing and the rest of the sleeve is huge.It catches the outer most part of the bushing or less than half of it's diameter.
On my 3 dies I just pushed a 30 caliber brush through the hole with minimal resistance.I then pushed it through the bushing and it was quite tight.
If any of the neck is hitting the sleeve or even coming close there is a huge problem here.
Lynn

Lynn
01-10-2008, 04:13 PM
The shoulder you are referring to just let a 7mm bullet fall straight through.It stops a 30 caliber bullet dead in its tracks.I don't have a way of reaching in the sleeve to get a measurement because its too deep.
I have seen those same scratches many times but I wish you all well in figuring it out.
Lynn

BJS6
01-10-2008, 04:27 PM
Sliding sleeve "Competition" bush neck die or "Type S" bush neck or full length die.

Lynn, we know that in principle the case should not touch, but maybe in this die there is a fault or whatever, who knows.

I know what you mean about bullet shaving etc but I still struggle to see a normal bush doing this to a case even with no lube and no chamfer. Based just on my experience, I certainly have been wrong before today, just ask my wife !!! :D

A quick in and out with no bush in the die will very quickly give a huge clue to the poroblem, why a guy wouldn't do that before posting here is beyond me !

Bryce

IndianaJames
01-10-2008, 04:48 PM
...on the first Harrell's die I got. Apparently it was made to size a turned neck, and it left these marks on my unturned 6BR brass when I tried to size it. I just used a drill and, holding the bit in my hand, went inside the die and gave it a little twist...cleaned right up.

Jim

Lynn
01-10-2008, 04:51 PM
Bryce you can size a 6BR neck in a 22BR die if you simply swap out the bushing.That is how much clearance there is.My dies are Redding Competition Seaters.
Good luck.
Lynn

333smitty
01-10-2008, 05:00 PM
This past weekend Jackie Schmidt was testing the new Beggs
case at Tomball. He borrowed one of my Redding bushings
and had a similar problem with scratches.

I think the problem was that Redding machined the bevel on same side
the numbers are printed on. It should be the other end.

Jackie fixed the problem by inserting the bushing number
side down. It fixed the problem.

He also said it was a isolated incident, but after reading
this tread I'm not so sure.

Maybe Jackie will chime in tonight and add some insight
to this problem.

rcheek
01-10-2008, 05:07 PM
I still say the necks need to be turned. I just opened a new box of Lapua 6BR brass and randomly selected one case. The neck had a minimum thickness of .0125 and a maximum of .0138. This produces a neck which is not concentric. The bushing is trying to push the case neck to one side so that it can line up the neck with the bushing. This is not going to happen easily. Thus,the neck should be turned before I size it down.

BJS6
01-10-2008, 05:07 PM
All the Redding bushes I have (about 25 I guess) have a nice radius on both ends of what is supposed to be a parallel hole with no taper. To the naked eye there appears to be no difference at either end.

jackie schmidt
01-10-2008, 06:17 PM
Last week end, while getting ready to test the .269 neck 6mm Beggs,I discovered that I had left my .265 neck bushing at home. Vic Smith had one, the yellow nitrided one, and loaned it to me.
I installed it, numbers up, and sized all 12 cases. They all had similiar "splines" on them as you seein the photo, although not quite that bad. I took the bushing out, and it appeared to be clean and burr free. But, I noticed that the side with the numbers had a much larger radius than the other side. I installed the bushing "numbers down",and the problem was solved.
The best I can figure, Redding miss stamped the die. It works perfect when installed up side down.........jackie

Dave Short
01-10-2008, 07:08 PM
At first, I was leaning to the side of the guys who say it must be dragging in the die body, because the scratches are so far down the case........then I went back and re-read the original post. He states that 5 or 6 cases went through before the scratches started to appear. It sounds like the entry side of the bushing might have a sharp edge, which picked up enough brass after sizing several cases to cause the grooves. I don't think it has to do with the starting chamfer, because the scratches are very shallow right at the mouth, and get bigger in a very short distance.

-Dave-:)

Dave Short
01-10-2008, 07:21 PM
I still say the necks need to be turned. I just opened a new box of Lapua 6BR brass and randomly selected one case. The neck had a minimum thickness of .0125 and a maximum of .0138. This produces a neck which is not concentric. The bushing is trying to push the case neck to one side so that it can line up the neck with the bushing. This is not going to happen easily. Thus,the neck should be turned before I size it down.

The bushing should be floating in it's bore, so it would have no trouble at all accomodating a neck that is not perfectly centered on the case body. Also, I see no relationship between the concentricity of the neck wall and whether the neck is coaxial to the case body or not.

Even if the bushing were in a fixed position within the die (it isn't supposed to be), and we were to assume that the inside of the neck is coaxial to the case body (it isn't), that .0013 variance in wall thickness would only put the outside .00065 out of center......that sure ain't going to upset things to cause those marks. And if it did, they wouldn't be even all the way around the case.

-Dave-:)

BJS6
01-10-2008, 07:22 PM
That was my other thought Dave.

" One possibility is if the bush is used with no lube and has picked up brass and the brass adhering to the inside of the bush is doing the damage. "

Like you said, having read the original post again, if it did it only after 5 - 6 cases it seems that brass must have picked up on the bush for some reason, either no lube or a sharp/rough edge on the bush or both.

You'd hope that if the bush was rough or sharp and/or had brass on it the poster might have noticed that and mentioned it. ????

Bryce

Lynn
01-10-2008, 08:04 PM
Why do some of you guys think the scratches go too far down the neck? How far are you sizing the necks on your cases? Also how are seeing the scratches deeper on the bottom than the top from the picture provided?
Lynn

Dave Short
01-10-2008, 08:31 PM
Why do some of you guys think the scratches go too far down the neck? How far are you sizing the necks on your cases? Also how are seeing the scratches deeper on the bottom than the top from the picture provided?
Lynn

Because a bushing die typically does not size the entire length of the neck. These ones going as far down as they do supports the idea of a sharp entry into the bushing...the bigger the radius on the bushing, the shorter the length of the sized area.

The neck diameter is larger near the shoulder than it is at the mouth....that is why the scratches are deeper toward the shoulder.

-Dave-:)

Lynn
01-10-2008, 09:14 PM
Daves thanks for your reply.I only shoot longrange and always adjust my Redding dies so they size the neck just like in the picture.I never knew you guys only sized a small portion of your necks.We try and keep the boattail to bearing length junction about 0.050 in front of the neck/shoulder junction on a fresh barrel and then chase the lands.
I also thought you were seeing something in the picture that actualy showed deeper scratches rather than basing it off of a very small amount of taper so they must be deeper theory.
Good Luck
Lynn

SanQ
01-10-2008, 09:39 PM
wow, 3 pages! thanks for all the input and help.



1.the bushing was floating in the die.

2.die body is ok, when neck goes through die without bushing, it does not touch the shoulder part.

3. redding bushing IS tapered! I can tell it by turning the bushing upside down.

4. number on the bushing has nothing to do with which size is up or down. it is randomly stamped on. (my .267 and .268 can prove this)

5. brass is used in a 272 chamber, I don't turn neck.

I kinda fix the problem by 1. turning the bushing up side down, still scratches, but the area near shoulder gets better. 2. polishing the bushing, I used dremel tool. 3. using case lube, I don't have neck wax. the neck looks normal now.

thanks again!

Gerry Jajowka
01-12-2008, 02:00 PM
First off, Redding buttons are not tapered, the sides of the bushing are parallel. Wilson bushings are the ones with the tapered walls. Looks like you have a die with an under sized clearance hole. Like someone earlier suggested, run a case in with the bushing out and you should'nt get any mark.

Lynn
01-12-2008, 03:23 PM
Gerry if you read the post before yours he has solved the problem and it has nothing at all to do with the clearance hole.
Lynn

Mike Swartz
01-12-2008, 03:47 PM
Simple test. If it will not go in the die full length without the bushing in the die it is the die body. If it DOES go full length with no marking it is the button. I have never seen a Redding die body, when used with the marked caliber, with the neck hole to small. AND the marks don't go clear to the shoulder/neck junction. They stop at about the bottom of the bushing hole. Simple test, easy fix either way.

Mike Swartz

LBaggett
01-12-2008, 08:45 PM
i can tell you exactly what the problem is. It is not the bushings. The die you have does not have enough opening in the the neck area before it enters the bushing. Lap out the opening and your problems are solved.

Dave Short
01-12-2008, 10:38 PM
Three of the four posts after he said the case neck clears the inside of the die and that he found the bushing to be the problem.............we're still looking for the problem and focusing on the clearance hole in the die.

And...............in his original post he said the problem didn't show up until he'd sized a half-dozen cases.

Stay after this problem a little longer, and it'll be so fixed it'll be broken again...............

-Dave-:)