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James in LA
01-09-2008, 11:16 AM
I don't know if he has started "production" of the Boat Tail bullets or not, but the ones he sent me are very promising.

I have shot the .790 jacketed Ultra pointed BT's in three barrels and the accuracy for 3-shot 100 yard groups has been quite amazing.

The groups were shot on three different days.....none of which had "ice cream" conditions. I have managed eight "zeroes" ranging from .016 to .096. I have also shot eight "ones".

The barrels used were 1) 13.5 Krieger 2) 14 Bartlein 3) 13.6 Hart.

I hope that Bart does not mind me posting this. The powder charge was varied along with the seating depth and my best results with the N133 was at 29.5 grains and .010 off jam.

I also have some .825 jacketed BT's from Bart built with the Wedge point, but have not been able to get those to shoot nearly as well as the .790 Ultra. James Mock

PS Here is a picture of some of the smallest 3-shot groups that I have ever shot. I measured two at .016 and .017...even if I was off by a few thousanths, they are show that these bullets are exceptional.

jackie schmidt
01-09-2008, 11:28 AM
Did Bart manage to get a "hint" of a gas ring on the junction of the boat tail and shank. I had heard a rumor that they were trying for that, as opposed to no gas ring at all, as per the Bruno 00 Boat Tail.........jackie

James in LA
01-09-2008, 12:04 PM
There may be a "hint" but it is not much...maybe a .0001 or so. The area at the junction measures about .2438 or there abouts. I am going to get back to the range and shoot some 200 yard groups and some 5-shot groups. It is a lot easier to shoot those micro groups with three shots than it is with five.
James

jackie schmidt
01-09-2008, 12:22 PM
.2438. That is pretty darned fat. The Bruno measures just about exactly .2430-.2431 at the junction of the boat tailand the shank.......jackie

James in LA
01-09-2008, 02:08 PM
I measured again and .2437 may be closer. I guess it is how aggressive one uses the micrometer.

I went to the range a few minutes ago and tried some 200 yard shooting. The range on which I shoot causes the bullet to travel close to the ground at 200 yards....much like bench #1 at Kelbly's.

Today was not a good day to test, but I shot through the heavy mirage anyhow. I had 14 rounds loaded with 29.2 grains of '06 N133 and I loaded the .790 BT about .010 off jam. The picture attached shows the results of one 3-shot and two 5-shot groups at 200 yards. They measured .277 for the 3 and .303 and .479 for the five shot groups. In the group on the right, the high shot was first. Without it this would have been a "screamer". I will try again when the sun is not so bright. James

mike in co
01-09-2008, 05:47 PM
james,
where do you hold(crosshair/dot)..i noticed no dot on your target and was wondering ..............
thanks
mike

James in LA
01-09-2008, 07:11 PM
The target is a practice BR target that has a mothball the size of the one we shoot in BR group competition. The 200 yard one has a 1 inch diameter. A dot would not have helped in the mirage that I had to contend with today. The rings would often disappear. James Mock PS: I hold center of mothball at both 100 and 200 yards.

Bart
01-09-2008, 08:27 PM
I want to thank James for testing my boattails. I know that he has gone out at least 5 different times to try them. It’s not easy dragging all your gear out to the range, setting up, testing, and then breaking it all down to haul back home. James has also been quick to provide each day’s results which have been encouraging. He was also quick to point out that of the two boattail bullets that I sent one has significantly out performed the other.

So far with the 790 BTs James has shot 16 groups of 3 shots. These were fired at 100 yards with 3 different barrels (Krieger, Hart, Bartlein) while adjusting the seating depth and powder charges.

Krieger .084, .017, .016
Bartlein .220, .139, .156, .214, .154
Bartlein .187, .168, .092, .097, .148
Hart .045, .053, 155

The aggregate came out to .120. These are not 5 shot groups but they are an indicator…particularly if you shoot 16 of them.

So far I have gone through at least 20 different variations (different bullet dies/ length jackets/weights/ and boattail configurations). The two bullets that I sent James are my best effort so far. Both bullets are double radius and big on the base. BTW James your micrometer is just fine I measure it just less than .2437

Testing continues…The one thing that I can say with 100 percent certainty, “ making a boattail is a pain in the butt.”

Bart

Dusty Stevens
01-09-2008, 08:34 PM
thanks for all you do Bart. I know I love your bullets.;)

Jeff Stover
01-09-2008, 09:17 PM
James - I think that Krieger might need extensive 10 shot group testing for a few weeks! :D

Jeff

jackie schmidt
01-09-2008, 09:48 PM
I was lucky enough to get some "inside info" on your boat tail efforts while I was at Rachels Glenn in October. You can't believe how many beers you have to get down Col Billy Stevens in order for him to divulge even a smidgin of info. Must be a Military thing.
I think you are on to something with the "fatter" boat tail. While I can make the Bruno's shoot quite well in the .237 4-groove Kriegers, the only way I can seem to do it is with that "upper end" load. A fatter bullet might get the pressure spike back toward the chamber with a charge that isn't so darned hard to get into the case.
What freebore are you using with your boat tail??.........jackie

Bart
01-10-2008, 09:59 AM
Jackie,

If you bait a trap with “Whisky or Woman” you’ll catch Billy every time.

The reamer we use cuts the neck to 1515 (trim length) and the freebore is .045. I think there is something to the bigger base as well.

Bart

Tubby
01-10-2008, 01:03 PM
Jackie,

If you bait a trap with “Whisky or Woman” you’ll catch Billy every time.

The reamer we use cuts the neck to 1515 (trim length) and the freebore is .045. I think there is something to the bigger base as well.

Bart

Hi Jackie, Bart..

Jackie, as you remembered a couple of weeks ago I posted a question on what bullet to use with my 269 reamer, .060 freebore. The overall reaction was that the freebore is to much for OO/fat bullets, as well as boattails... the suggestions was to stick with 7/7.5 ogive FB bullets.... only suggestion, no probs!! On these groups with a chamber with a .045 freebore these boattails look as if they want to group... In your opinion/expertise, is there such a big difference between .045 and .060??? Barts are about the only bullets we get imported from the US, and I was thinking of getting a new reamer with less freebore... BUT if that's not nescessary it will be a huge plus for me. I am about to chamber 2 barrels with my 269 reamer...and wants to get started!

Many thanks !
Gerrit
Namibia

James in LA
01-10-2008, 04:21 PM
The barrels that I used have a .045 freebore (Hugh Henricksen reamer) and the double radius bullet is not seated very deep into the case. One could use as little as .025 in my opinion.

The 200 yard groups in the picture above do not accurately reflect the capability of the bullet but reflect my efforts to battle the extreme mirage. Today we have thunderstorms and tornado warnings, but I plan to get to the range and test these fine bullets at 200 with better conditions. James

jackie schmidt
01-10-2008, 06:21 PM
As you might know, I use a "zero" freebore with the Bruno Boat Tail. I believe it puts the bullet just where it should be.
There is not a lot of difference in the set-up length of the Ultras I have on hand, and the Bruno 00. In fact, they are darned near identicle.........jackie

John Soniat
01-10-2008, 08:50 PM
I just finished a Bartlein LV barrel. Have not got to the range yet. Those numbers posted by Bart are somewhat disturbing. I can only hope that this data reflects some rough condition.

My first chamber and I think it looks good. I would also like to thanks everyone who contributes info. So much of what I learned came from these forums.

John

Tubby
01-11-2008, 12:20 AM
I just finished a Bartlein LV barrel. Have not got to the range yet. Those numbers posted by Bart are somewhat disturbing. I can only hope that this data reflects some rough condition.

My first chamber and I think it looks good. I would also like to thanks everyone who contributes info. So much of what I learned came from these forums.

John

The Bartlein 13.5twist barrel performs VERY well..... hopefully you got a hummer... good luck!

ShelleyDavidson
01-11-2008, 08:32 AM
It's my opinion that different brands and different individual barrels, or for that matter, different guns will tune differently. When several different barrels are tested with the exact same pre-loaded ammo, one of the barrels is going to be more agreeable with that particular load tune than do the others. A slightly different bore diameter will affect the time that it takes for the bullet to exit the muzzle, therefore the barrel's muzzle tip will be at a slightly different place in it's vibration swing.

Heck, you can't even expect two different bullets, because of diameter and bearing length differences, to shoot the same when being used with the exact same powder charge. Each component will change the tune slightly, the entire gun combination must be tuned together to shoot to it's highest potential.

I recently saw a shooter, at the range, who was shooting one maker's bullets and then shooting another maker's bullets in the next group. He repeated this test several times. Needless to say, one kind of bullets shot slightly better. Does that mean that the best shooting bullet, in this test, is the superior bullet? Possibly, but not necessarily. If the shooter had tuned each bullet carefully and separately and then shot a different charge and seating depth for each of the different bullets, he might have proved something. But being as how he used the same, powder, charge and seating depth for each of the bullets, he only determined that he had found a better tune for bullet #1 than bullet #2. There were several new shooters watching this "test." I think that at least one of these guys went home and canceled his bullet order from the maker of the bullets that didn't work as well in another shooter's gun with a tune that may not be right for those bullets.....Sad.

Shelley

jackie schmidt
01-11-2008, 09:02 AM
You make a very good point
It is my opinion that we have a multitude of fine bullet makers, (and barrel and action makers), at this time whose products are capable of producing winning aggs. The trick is,you have to find the correct powder-barrel-bullet combo that works, and be willing to stick with it.
Some of us have stummbled upon certain set-ups that work, and we stick with it. That is not to say that we believe that other products are inferior. It is just we do not like having to re-learn the tuning curve everytime we decide to change something.In case nobody has noticed, this is one tough game to play.
It has been my experience that the shooters who are most successful throughout the entire shooting year find some thing that works pretty good, and they stick with it, perhaps making small refinements within the basic combination.
Shooters who fall for the "what's hot at the moment" scheme generally end up chasing the tune all week end, and watching other shooters garnish the wins..........jackie

HovisKM
01-11-2008, 10:21 AM
Jackie and Shelly,
As usual, you guys hit it right on the head. The two people who have helped me the most in my shooting was Ed Watson and Dwight Scott, and they mirror what your guys are saying. Keep it simple. I was asking Dwight not to long ago about why it seems he doesn't use some of his inovations right away (usually others test it) and he told me: He was not going to go chasing a holy grail. And will normally only try new things after he'd been beaten by it for a couple of years. Ed would always say the same type of thing to me.

I, like you jackie, perfer to shoot bullets at jam or as close to jam as possible. The reason I do is I feel that a slight mistake with a bullet seating stem moving, powder variation or FL die is less noticable on the target if your shooting toward jam. I tested this by shooting slight variations (controlled) in the all the mentioned and there was less variation on groups around jam than with bullets jumping or barely touching. That does not mean I won't jump or just touch if the barrel show a definite preference for it but I sure perfer jam. I will shoot different bullets at jam and then try to tune the bullet load that shot best until I have got all I believe I can get out of it and if it's competitive. I stop there. The reason why, is I believe with my level of experience, I'm better off putting rounds down range instead of worrying about .020 better on an agg with a different combo because I certainly can error that much. What do I use as a standard of being competitive: Five-5 shot groups with an agg at 100yds between .120 and .160 If I can't get that, then I start looking at changing something. Of course only one thing at a time (It amazes me how many people I find that will change two or more things at a time). If I'm wrong with this process, by all means, correct me. I'm always willing to learn more. Nothing makes me smile more than being beat by someone I've helped out. It's just like I won.

Also, one thing I ran with my 22-.100 barrel (a really good one too) was I could shoot Ed's 22cal 52grn, Bart's 52grn and Cheeks 52grn into one hole while mixing them randomly into the same group. I actually would put a couple of each in a cup and then take them out, seated at jam, and shoot groups in the mid ones. This would hold true until I got around 20 thousands from jam. What I mean by jam is the point where the bullets are pushed back into the case from chambering. I set these 22cal long and let the chamber finally seat them and kept backing them out and the groups would be the same whether the bullets were mixed together or not. The conclusion I came to is that the bullets were just so exact in length, weight and ogive that they must be almost identical. I have never been able to do this with 6mm's though and I have tried for fun on older barrels.

Hovis

steve stanley
01-11-2008, 04:44 PM
Hovis, you said a mouthful when you said the barrel was a real good one, the real good ones will shoot just about any thing well. They are not idiot proof but as close as it gets in this game. Have a good day, Steve

HovisKM
01-11-2008, 05:58 PM
Steve,
Your right, this is one of only three barrels I've had that just shot great, easy to tune and seemed to last forever. This barrel has 4000 rds down it. It started as a waldog in 1980 and I had it rechambered 1500 or so rds ago to -.100 short. Both barrels were 1980 production Shilen's.

Hovis

wnroscoe
01-11-2008, 06:41 PM
James,

Those are some impressive groups there, .016" & .018", leave those at home during the matches this year ;), would'nt wont you to waste em on us. Hope to see ya in March.

William

James in LA
01-13-2008, 02:53 PM
I don't know what your concern is with the Bartlein barrel. Yes, there were a couple "2's" but that barrel is very consistent and I will probably shoot it at the Super Shoot this year. One can not expect zero groups with each group. These groups were shot in the real world with the wind, mirage, and ability of a 64 year old shooter. The Bartlein is a very good barrel in that it shoots where it supposed to and it handles the wind fairly well. This same barrel led me to a 5th place finish at 100 yards at last years Super Shoot, and most of the credit should be given to the barrel. Good shooting....James

John Soniat
01-13-2008, 03:25 PM
All I can say to that is Amen!

I hope to shoot with you at a Crawfish in Louisiana next year.

Thankyou,

John

James in LA
01-13-2008, 04:46 PM
We are all pulling for a Crawfish at Lafayette. I will be there (Good Lord willing). Meanwhile, why don't you travel to Tomball for this year's Crawfish. James Mock

Tubby
01-14-2008, 09:50 AM
I don't know what your concern is with the Bartlein barrel. Yes, there were a couple "2's" but that barrel is very consistent and I will probably shoot it at the Super Shoot this year. One can not expect zero groups with each group. These groups were shot in the real world with the wind, mirage, and ability of a 64 year old shooter. The Bartlein is a very good barrel in that it shoots where it supposed to and it handles the wind fairly well. This same barrel led me to a 5th place finish at 100 yards at last years Super Shoot, and most of the credit should be given to the barrel. Good shooting....James

That's why I ordered 20 of them....:D

Good shootin guys!!

Kirk Ethridge
01-16-2008, 09:44 AM
Bart,

Absolutley the best shooting bullets i have made are with the .790 jacket.

mine are not boattail. Maybe it's the jacket? have you tried any of your other bullets on this shorter jacket?

my point die is from Niemi. (7/11 dro). incidently.



Kirk

Bart
01-16-2008, 03:35 PM
Kirk,

Most of my experience is with .825 jackets. Up till now I would have to say they have been the best performing bullets that I have made. However with that said the little 65 gain BT on 790s is doing exceptionally well.

I think it really depends on the individual bullet die and how the shooter's rifle is set up.

Just my thoughts…nothing scientific

Bart

Tubby
01-18-2008, 12:40 PM
Kirk,

Most of my experience is with .825 jackets. Up till now I would have to say they have been the best performing bullets that I have made. However with that said the little 65 gain BT on 790s is doing exceptionally well.

I think it really depends on the individual bullet die and how the shooter's rifle is set up.

Just my thoughts…nothing scientific

Bart

Hi Bart

When will these BT bullets be commercially available??

Thanks for making some great bullets, and helping a guy like me shoot better...!! :p

Regards
Gerrit
Walvis Bay
Namibia

Bart
01-18-2008, 07:54 PM
Gerrit,

I am taking orders for the 790. BTs now. Word spread pretty quickly through the benchrest world about the new bullet. Quite frankly I wasn’t prepared for the nearly overwhelming response it has received.

Send me an email and I’ll point you in the right direction.

Thanks for the kind words.

Bart

The6ppc@aol.com