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Gene Beggs
01-08-2008, 11:27 PM
Just returned from a most pleasant late evening session at the tunnel, and wanted to share the experience with my friends. It is such a pleasure to shoot a rifle that is really set up right. Cases go in and out of the chamber like butter, the load is right on and burns clean, the barrel responds in a predictable and repeatable manner to tuner adjustments, and the last group formed a nice little clover leaf estimated at .125.

The rifle was my HV, 'Ol' Bud' chambered in 6mm Beggs NT, .274 neck. The barrel is a twenty-four inch Bartlein 13 twist with one of my wheel-type tuners installed, which BTW, will be standard equipment on every barrel I chamber from now on. :D Yeah,, they're that good; simple, inexpensive and easy to adjust to boot!

The load was 28 grains of H322 Extreme ignited by a CCI BR4 primer. The bullets were some old Watson 68's, seven ogive, seated right on 'jam.' (Ed Watson sure knew how to make bullets.)

This entire project resulted from a desire to develope an easy to prepare, easy to load and shoot .22 that could compete heads-up with the .100 short 22ppc. That was easy, but it looks as if the cartridge that emerged as an afterthought, the 6mm Beggs NT is going to be the most successful of them all. The more experience I get with it the more impressed I am.

Later,,,

Gene Beggs

Dusty Stevens
01-09-2008, 03:06 AM
you shot a .125 in a tunnel?

Gene Beggs
01-09-2008, 06:11 AM
you shot a .125 in a tunnel?

Dusty, your question leads me to believe that you regard a .125 as a rather large group for a tunnel. If that is the case, it tells me you have no experience shooting in one.

Controlled environment shooting is a real eye opener. When I first began shooting in the tunnel two years ago, I expected to see consistent groups in the zeroes and low ones. Wrong! What I experienced were aggs of around .375 to .400. At first, I thought there was something wrong with the tunnel. There was just no way my rifles could be that bad. :eek: And it couldn't be me; could it? :eek: After several months of frustration, I was forced to accept the ugly truth. Yes,, my rifles WERE that bad and I was far from the expert I thought I was. :rolleyes:

I believe the 'Zero Agg' myth that grew out of the infamous, 'Houston Warehouse' story is just that; a myth.

Later,

Gene Beggs

Dusty Stevens
01-09-2008, 06:26 AM
weird things happen around a bullet. what kind of airflow do you have in there?
I just figured they'd be smaller inside. I shot a .2627 4 gun agg with a 3" group throwed in for good measure down at Mickey's regional shoot in some rather tricky conditions. had a .187 at most times before that one shot. I guess gun handling makes a real big difference in a tunnel.

jackie schmidt
01-09-2008, 07:11 AM
I have talked with several of the older shooters who were able to visit the old Houston Warehouse shoots. It seems that the majority had a difficult time shooting those really small groups that seem to have become legend when speaking of that endevour. In fact, it seems that Virgil was one of the few to experienced those legendary "zeros" that were so touted.
I shot the 6mm Beggs in some absolutly terrible conditions last week end at Tomball. I gave it a detailed write up, including somethings to be aware of when using a reamer with this steep of a body taper, but judging from the fact that I got one responce, either shooters are sick of me, or don't really care that much about shooting a Rifle in real World conditions. They are probably sick of me.
The fact is, it shoots like any other small capacity case with the finest components mixed together. The fact that you might be able to just pick cases right out of the box, neck them up, and shoot, has a lot of appeal. Or, at least it does to me.
But what really has me thinking is a non necked turned 6PPC. The way I blow them out, by using a 22 caliber bullet and a full charge of 133, makes a non neck turned 6PPC that is darned near perfect. You can seat a bullet, and carefully measure around the OD of the neck, and pick up very little difference, a coupleof tenths at the most. We can thank Lapua for that.
The next time you are hanging out with shooting friends, take some loaded rounds from each and do the same. I have. The fact is, many shooters actually end up with a worse case AFTER they turn the necks. When you see them turn necks, this is not hard to believe.
But I degress. The fact is, there probably isn't anything special about the 6PPC. Sure, it has won more Benchrest Matches than any other chambering, but it has also lost more as well. Any small case with about the same powder capacity to bullet diameter willdo the same thing...........jackie

PHaxell
01-09-2008, 07:20 AM
Jackie,

We are hardly sick of you. I wait with baited breath to see what your experiments turn up and am looking forward to the next installment from your testing of the Beggs case.
Keep up the great work. Pioneers and meddlers alike, it was people like Palmisano and Pindell and now you and Gene who progress this great sport.
Peter

RayfromTX
01-09-2008, 07:24 AM
I love you Jackie. I just have too much invested in what I have to go another route. Oh and did I mention, I love you Jackie.

JerrySharrett
01-09-2008, 08:07 AM
I shot the 6mm Beggs in some absolutly terrible conditions last week end at Tomball. I gave it a detailed write up, including somethings to be aware of when using a reamer with this steep of a body taper, but judging from the fact that I got one responce, either shooters are sick of me, or don't really care that much about shooting a Rifle in real World conditions. [b] They are probably sick of me. [b]
..jackie

Jackie, that worked for Hillary, it will not work for you.
Seriously, on that thread, you had 565 people, so far, read what you wrote. Not bad, really very good. Don't worry that you had only 3 responses. many readers we have on this forum now really can't add anything to shooting 0.150" 10-shot groups. It's just out of their comprehension.

jackie schmidt
01-09-2008, 08:37 AM
Even the thought of Hillary makes me want to wake up from a bad dream. The thought of being compared to her makes one take pause, just before nausia sets in. Perhaps I should re-hash my thoughts.......jackie

JerrySharrett
01-09-2008, 08:43 AM
Even the thought of Hillary makes me want to wake up from a bad dream. The thought of being compared to her makes one take pause, just before nausia sets in. Perhaps I should re-hash my thoughts.......jackie

Jackie, I'm sorry. Relating someone to Hillary Dear could be taken badly, I see that now and am truly in repentance!!

JohnVm
01-09-2008, 09:11 AM
Jackie, I am sure a lot of people are following your threads on the Beggs cartridges. If you think about it, there isn't much to say as Gene and now you are the few who have any experience with this cartridge. I for one have been reading the posts as I am interested in a cartridge that will shoot something other than 133 or 8208 as they are not always available. The past 2 years I have played with 4 different powders in the 6ppc and I am convinced that 322 in the extreme version is a good powder but not suited to the 6 ppc and needs a smaller case and Benchmark wouldn't get past average no matter what i did. With the smaller sized cases, 322 and 4198 will help as far as keeping things competitive and having options. Thanks to Gene, if this works out well there will be reamers and dies that work and the transition will be less painless for many which may help keep the sport alive.

Frank Svenson
01-09-2008, 10:45 AM
Jackie. Speaking for myself and probably countless others who do not compete ,but really appreciate accurate rifles. I read ALL your posts and have learned a lot about a variety of things from machining , shooting and reloading to being a standup guy. KEEP going , we really appreciate your work and dedication. Frank

caroby
01-09-2008, 10:45 AM
Jackie, I am sure a lot of people are following your threads on the Beggs cartridges. If you think about it, there isn't much to say as Gene and now you are the few who have any experience with this cartridge. I for one have been reading the posts as I am interested in a cartridge that will shoot something other than 133 or 8208 as they are not always available. The past 2 years I have played with 4 different powders in the 6ppc and I am convinced that 322 in the extreme version is a good powder but not suited to the 6 ppc and needs a smaller case and Benchmark wouldn't get past average no matter what i did. With the smaller sized cases, 322 and 4198 will help as far as keeping things competitive and having options. Thanks to Gene, if this works out well there will be reamers and dies that work and the transition will be less painless for many which may help keep the sport alive.

Agree entirely John!
cale

wolf gray
01-09-2008, 11:16 AM
Jackie,
I would watch that "Ray from Texas" real close! :D

I don't know about everybody else, but I enjoy all of your info. You know what kind of shooter I am so I need all the info and help I can get. I think I have narrowed to down to 3 or 4 items. My brass, my rifle, my ability and the wind! I have pretty much solved my brass problem (by ordering turned cases from Roh Hoehn). I have your buddy in AZ. building me a new 6PPC. Now it's down to me and the wind mostly. Which means I am probably still in trouble as far as shooting small groups! But the guys I see at the shoots are a lot of fun & and I learn a little more everytime I go to one.
I am interested in what you are doing with the Beggs cartridges as I ordered the die from Gene. I will probably have Cecil build me one out of my 1st ppc rifle. So keep up the great work. US BEGINNERS NEED TO LEARN FROM YOUSE GUYS! :D
Save me half a bench in Midland.

Dan Batko

wolf gray
01-09-2008, 11:20 AM
Looks like I need to learn to spell too! That's supposed to be "Pioneering Research" !
Dan
:o

Donald
01-09-2008, 11:59 AM
Jackie,
You expected more replies? Man, what else could anyone say except thanks to you and Gene. I am saving anything related to the 6mmBeggs. I won a barrel from Shilen at the swap meet and asked for a 224/14T/Rachet rifling. Called yesterday and changed it to 6mm. I have a Viper drop port just waiting for something like that. Thanks for all the experiments and time you spend posting.......Donald

James in LA
01-09-2008, 12:12 PM
Having shot in Gene's tunnel, I found that it is easier to shoot real tiny groups outside than in the tunnel. Likewise, it is much easier to shoot large outside than it is in the tunnel. The tunnel allows one to test a lot of loads with out the concentration on conditions that is required outside.

I don't know what it is about a tunnel that keeps a good barrel from shooting its smallest but it may have to do with the burnt gases from previous rounds. James

Gene Beggs
01-09-2008, 12:22 PM
weird things happen around a bullet. what kind of airflow do you have in there?
I just figured they'd be smaller inside. I shot a .2627 4 gun agg with a 3" group throwed in for good measure down at Mickey's regional shoot in some rather tricky conditions. had a .187 at most times before that one shot. I guess gun handling makes a real big difference in a tunnel.

Dusty, during the past two years, I have learned as much about how tunnels work as I have about what makes a rifle shoot its best. Except for the government owned facilities like Aberdeen Proving Grounds, there are very few shooting tunnels in the country, and little is known about building and operating them. Most shooting in test tunnels by the ammunition and arms manufacturers is done from machine rests where mirage is not a factor.

Two things I have learned the hard way; one, you must be able to completely control the airflow throughout the tunnel, and two, the tunnel, firing room, expansion chamber and target room must be isolated from any other source of air movement such as airconditioning, heaters, air return ducts, etc. Contrary to what I was told, best results are obtained by switching off the exhaust fan and waiting until the air in the facility has stabilized, which is indicated by the disappearance of mirage. This takes less than one minute. After firing your group, you open the louvers in the expansion room, turn the exhaust fan on and exchange the air in the tunnel.

You said, "Weird things happen around a bullet." I think this statement tends to cast a mysterious cloud upon something that is actually well understood. Air flow around, in front of and behind supersonic projectiles has been well documented and photographed by ballistic engineers. Until recently, I mistakenly believed that bullets produce vortices much like the wingtips of aircraft in flight, but thanks to my friend Brian Litz, a rocket scientist for the Air Force, I now understand, this is not the case. Yes, bullets DO leave a wake, but the wake is disorganized and disapates quickly. If in calm conditions or when shooting in a tunnel, one waits a while longer between shots, dispersion caused by the wake of preceeding bullets is minimized.

When you said, "I guess gun handling makes a real big difference in a tunnel," you are so right ! It also makes just as much difference outdoors. It did not take long shooting in the tunnel before I realized that I had been losing much more to rifle handling errors than I thought.

Let's keep working at it, this rifle accuracy study is fascinating; isn't it?

Have a good one,

Gene Beggs

Centerfire
01-09-2008, 12:49 PM
Gene what is the differences in group sizes between a standard BR rifle and a unlimited bench rifle?

bryan
01-09-2008, 01:02 PM
Gene: You are known to be a shooter who prefers light loads. 28.0 H322 seems like a fairly hot load in that small case. Did you happen to clock it?
Bryan

Gene Beggs
01-09-2008, 02:13 PM
Gene what is the differences in group sizes between a standard BR rifle and a unlimited bench rifle?

Not much ! Most all use the same cartridge, the 6PPC. Many shooters shoot their heavy varmint bag gun in unlimited, but when it comes to ten shot groups, there is no question, the rail guns have the advantage. But as far as pure accuracy is concerned; no difference.

Gene Beggs

Gene Beggs
01-09-2008, 02:24 PM
Gene: You are known to be a shooter who prefers light loads. 28.0 H322 seems like a fairly hot load in that small case. Did you happen to clock it?
Bryan

Bryan, the 28 grains of H322 Extreme that I was shooting last night showed an average muzzle velocity of 3320 fps from the 24 inch barrel. Yes, that's definitely a hot load, but it sure shot well and no problems with the cases.

Gene Beggs

bryan
01-09-2008, 02:48 PM
Thanks, Gene.
Bryan

MColeman
01-09-2008, 03:00 PM
It seems that the majority had a difficult time shooting those really small groups that seem to have become legend when speaking of that endevour. In fact, it seems that Virgil was one of the few to experienced those legendary "zeros" that were so touted.


Jackie, I've talked with Geraci several times about the Houston warehouse. He shot it in a few times and told me that he never shot a 'zero' group in it.

As for your comments on the 6Beggs, don't get disheartened. I've ordered a reamer and die and a barrel. Jerry Dailey wants to try it as well. In fact, Gene Beggs, if you're reading this send two sizing dies if you can. Jerry wants one.

Back to Jackie, on making the sleeve for your competition seater, is that much trouble? Did you make it out of a piece of barrel?
Thanks.

jackie schmidt
01-09-2008, 03:40 PM
No, I made it out of Stress Proof, which is a higher carbon sulphurized steel that machines great, and has a fantastic anti-gall quality. We use a lot of it around the shop.
The most difficult thing to do on the Redding Sleeve is boring the hole for the bullet seating stem. It has to be a very close fit. The one I used measured ,2435.
I did that end first, (after turning the OD to .6255), and then turned the piece around, indicated it dead true, and bored and reamed the sleeve with the Beggs Reamer.
What would make it easier is if you had a Redding die for an old 6x47, the one made from a 22Mag necked up to 6mm. All you would have to do then is chuck it up dead true, cut it to the correct length, and ream out the hole with the reamer to the correct depth. You would then cut the body of the die to the correct length as well.
I don't even know if Redding makes that die. But I bet Wilson does, or just buy a 6mm wilson blank........jackie

MColeman
01-09-2008, 04:04 PM
I'll take the sleeve out of my Competition die and duplicate it with the Beggs reamer. That should work. I don't have any Stress Proof but I do have something that will work, I think.

Jerry Dailey
01-09-2008, 07:27 PM
I want a sizer also. If you havent shipped his yet, please send him 2 and I will get it from him. What do you use for a seater? Thanks