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Andy Shifflett
01-08-2008, 09:24 AM
There is a rumor floating around that the qualifying matches that were posted in the NBRSA news were not approved by the powers that be, and that they are going to be changed.

It would be nice if someone with "authority" could post something on this board so plans could be made in advance. Some shooters or their family members need to schedule vacation time for the entire year shortly after New Years.

Seems to me that it would be much simpler if we just adopted a qualifying format and left it alone. Not all of us are going to be content with whatever format is finally decided, so lets just pick one, make it a standard and leave it alone. The shooters that are really interested in trying to qualify will show up no matter when or where, and those that arent, wont!

In my opinion, regardless of what format is finally decided upon, i dont think we should ever have 2 qualifying matches at the same range in the same year.

Andy

Allen Arnette
01-08-2008, 11:57 AM
Well said Andy.
Allen Arnette

Butch Lambert
01-08-2008, 01:26 PM
Andy,
You're pretty wise for a young man.
Butch

LARRY FEUSSE
01-08-2008, 05:05 PM
Andy, I agree with you completely. Why should all those people from east of the Mississippi have to travel 1500 to 2500 miles twice in the same year. Once is bad enough. Please don't take this as baseless griping. It is intended as constructive observation so that improvements can develop. Larry

jackie schmidt
01-08-2008, 05:12 PM
Two Qualifyers at the same range, during the same year???.
Is that any worse than having amatch for a qualifyer that is not even a registered NBRSA Match unless a situation like this, (World Team Qualifyer), comes up.
It's an imperfect World.........jackie

Andy Shifflett
01-08-2008, 05:56 PM
Jackie,

I am not up to speed on this whole NBRSA registered match thing. To me, World qualifying matches are held so that we can send the 12 best shooters we have. In order to do that i personally feel like those shooters should excel in the biggest matches we have. That would be the Nationals and the SS. You could let all 3 matches count or you could adopt a best 2 out of 3 format, that way, if a shooter was unable to attend all 3 matches he would still have a chance of qualifying for the world team.

I came into this sport way to late to know the particulars of the IBS, NBRSA conflict, but in the 4 years i have been here i have seen group matches and ranges disappear. I hear many people talk about shooter attendance being down, membership numbers being down and no young shooters coming into the sport and all the things that we need to do in order to correct these problems.

Seems to me if everyone involved was truly interested in seeing this sport continue, the governing bodies of both the IBS and the NBRSA could put their differencs behind them, and form 1 organization. I feel safe in saying that most shooters could care less about the NBRSA, IBS "BS" that is going on, all we care about is having a place to shoot, and someone to compete against.

I also feel safe in saying, if something isnt done fairly quick, 5 years from now we will all be wondering what went wrong.

Andy

Tom Libby
01-08-2008, 05:58 PM
It seems in the years I have been shooting that all of you that live east of the Mississippi think that once you past it to the west you are falling off the world. I live in California and last year went 2500 miles to Ohio for the super shoot and 2500 miles to Ohio for the NBRSA and back each way, add it up. so why are the shooter east of the Missippi special? If you don't want to shoot West don't go and if I don't want to go East I can stay home with my toys. I just like to travel and shoot and see some of the people I only see maybe once a year and I do it for FUN, its not like we make a lot of money doing this. Anyway it is just my 3 cents worth.

jackie schmidt
01-08-2008, 06:08 PM
Without hyjacking this thread too much, it would not surprise me that in five to eight years, the IBS will be a dedicated Score Sanctioning Body, and the NBRSA will be the dedicated Group Sanctioning Body.
As for the NBRSA and IBS meaning something, I DO care about the Sanctioning Bodies. They are what certifies our accomplishments........jackie

JerrySharrett
01-08-2008, 06:21 PM
Best 3 of 5?? again??

Have one in the central US, two in the west and two in the east. Then let the shooters standing be their best 3 of 5.

Andy Shifflett
01-08-2008, 09:32 PM
Dont worry about hyjacking this thread, we can all use this one as a good place to "air" some dirty laundry. You said excately what i was thinking about the score shooting and the IBS, i simply didnt say it because i didnt want the score shooting fraternity to think i was in some way bad mouthing them.

Just for the record i wasnt saying i didnt care about the two sanctioning bodies. I do care, but i dont care about the issues between the two. Since i am relatively new to this sport maybe someone can tell us just what the issues are that keep the two from becoming one.

In a few weeks, the IBS will have the annual members meeting, i have never attended this meeting so i cant say with certainty what goes on, but it does seem like a proper way of handling things. On the other hand the NBRSA seems to want to conduct important issues behind closed doors. Why all the secrecy?

In 2006 the world qualifying format was a best 3 of 5. In 2008 it is simply 3 matches? Why the change? Who makes these changes? Why are the members of the NBRSA not informed that changes like that are even being considered? Thats just a few of the many questions that i think we all have a right to have answered.

Andy

Dave Coots
01-08-2008, 09:38 PM
Jackie,
Seems to me if everyone involved was truly interested in seeing this sport continue, the governing bodies of both the IBS and the NBRSA could put their differencs behind them, and form 1 organization. I feel safe in saying that most shooters could care less about the NBRSA, IBS "BS" that is going on, all we care about is having a place to shoot, and someone to compete against.

Andy

My a$$ is still burning from the whuppin i took a few years ago when i mentioned that idea. Lots of people still around with hard feelings from the split, maybe rightfully so, maybe not, depends on what side of the fence they were on.

Dave

Duane(Pa)
01-08-2008, 10:17 PM
I live in the East, want to shoot Group, and despise closed door back room meetings. I sure hope Jackie is wrong in a big way on this one.(post#8) Thanks for taking this on Andy. Your observations are 20/20

Dusty Stevens
01-08-2008, 10:40 PM
is the world association even affiliated with the NBRSA or the IBS? I think they just adopted some standards and rules from them so that's why it doesn't matter if it's a registered match.

Dana
01-09-2008, 07:57 AM
I live in the East, want to shoot Group, and despise closed door back room meetings. I sure hope Jackie is wrong in a big way on this one.(post#8) Thanks for taking this on Andy. Your observations are 20/20
Duane,
Wouldn't count on it unless the group shooters start getting together and get to the annual metting and start voicing their concerns. It just amazes me that you constantly see reports on this website about IBS Score matches but very seldom see IBS Group matches reported. I wonder why that is?:confused:

jackie schmidt
01-09-2008, 08:32 AM
I was always under the impression that since the World Team Qualifyers were decided only in NBRSA Registered Competition, that it did indeed have an affiliation with the NBRSA.
But who knows??. The NBRSA legalized tuners, but the majority of out Team Shooters were informed that they could not use them at the World Match. Then, it was found out later that they could indeed, AFTER the majority had taken them off of their Rifles and left them at home. It seems there is even confusion among the "powers that be" as to just what is what.
It was all a big miss understanding, but it shows that the old adage of Murphys Laws are always in affect.
I salute the shooters who have the time, and put forth the effort, to make the World Team. It's a tough rode to travel........jackie

Rob Carnell
01-09-2008, 08:40 AM
We have the same issues everytime for the WBC down under too.

Rob Carnell
Sydney, Australia

Jeff Stover
01-09-2008, 09:04 AM
Dana - check the IBS group schedule vs. the one for score. There are simply way more score matches. It is much easier for a range to host a one-day shoot with no moving backers than a 2-day shoot with backers, et. al. Another reason is the VFS discipline is growing and the group one is static. But I am encouraged by the 2008 tentative IBS group schedule you will see group shoots from May to Sept fairly well spaced out. I hope to see you and many others this year. :) The IBS Group Committee is working on some was to boost attendance and also promote the sport in general. We will be discussing it a the IBS Winter Meeting next weekend.

Jackie, in regard to tuners at the WBC9: I don't have an exact count, but the only team member that had been using a tuner on a more than experimental basis was Darryl Loker. I think others had tinkered with them (such as Gene and maybe Ron), but I did not hear one word from anyone lamenting that they could not have a tuner there. I lamented some, but it wasn't about a tuner...

There has been a fair amount of traffic on this forum relative to WBC10 qualifiers. The US member federation to the WBSF is the NBRSA. That is why, heretofore, all qualifiers were NBRSA registered matches. A few of the previous responses to these threads mention IBS as it relates to World Team qualifying. As far as I know, no IBS shoot has ever counted toward the qualifying.

Jeff Stover
IBS Group Committee Chairman

Lee Hachigian
01-09-2008, 08:14 PM
If the NBRSA is facilitating the World Team points, why is the Supershoot one of the qualifing matches when it is not a "registered" match with the NBRSA. Shouldn't a "points" match be registered with the lead association facilitating the process?

It seems to me that the there isn't an "oversight" entity involved with the U.S. World Team. If there is, what procedures are used, are they documented, and why is'nt the process transparent to its members?

Just a Concerned BR shooter,
Lee

jackie schmidt
01-09-2008, 08:22 PM
It is my Understanding that when the Super Shoot is a Qualifyer, (every other year), they do register it.
Lee, most of us personally know many of the members that were on the 2007 team. Many of us have talked to them. I am sure you have as well.
There were a lot of problems, some simply logistics, some more on a personal note. Since it is all "second hand' to us, (wasn't there), I trust that the powers that be will address what ever problems there were, are could crop up, in the future.
My Region Director, Scott Hunter, has told me that the NBRSA is getting ready to address some of these issues. In fact, after what happenned at this years BOD's meeting, the BOD is getting ready to address a lot of things......jackie

Mike Paul
01-09-2008, 08:48 PM
Andy, I agree with you completely. Why should all those people from east of the Mississippi have to travel 1500 to 2500 miles twice in the same year. Once is bad enough. Please don't take this as baseless griping. It is intended as constructive observation so that improvements can develop. Larry

What's the difference between that and traveling back east to the Super shoot and Nationals held in the East for us western shooters???

I would have no issues with seeing a best of 5 qualifying series, but it should not penalize a shooter for where he lives. In the end, if a shooter wants to spend the time and effort needed to qualify for the team, he will probably do whatever is necessary to get to these events. The logistics on locations should be a consideration factor though.

-Mike Paul

j mckinnie
01-09-2008, 08:55 PM
are at http://www.world-benchrest.com/index.php go into documents then rules i think A.5 covers this.Jim

Graeme Smith
01-09-2008, 09:54 PM
Just to provide some clarity on this discussion.

NBRSA is the USA organisation recognised by the World Benchrest Shooting Federation and has the responsibility to send representatives to the World Championships. They have as part of our rules to ensure that all BR shooters who wish to qualify are able to attend their selection matches.

Anybody wishing to read the actual rules I suggest they go to the World Benchrest site - they are all their for everyone to see.

any further questions/queries you can always email me

graeme@manukastreet.org.nz

Graeme Smith
WBSF President

jackie schmidt
01-09-2008, 10:09 PM
The NBRSA is the official WBSF affiliate in the United States. So, logic would dictate that all qualifyers must be Registered NBRSA Events.
I scanned the rules for Rifles, and saw no mention of tuning devices. Does the WBSF recognize the NBRSA guidelines, (which are quite liberal), concering this. ......jackie

Mike Marcelli
01-09-2008, 10:10 PM
Just to provide some clarity on this discussion.

NBRSA is the USA organisation recognised by the World Benchrest Shooting Federation and has the responsibility to send representatives to the World Championships. They have as part of our rules to ensure that all BR shooters who wish to qualify are able to attend their selection matches.

Anybody wishing to read the actual rules I suggest they go to the World Benchrest site - they are all their for everyone to see.

any further questions/queries you can always email me

graeme@manukastreet.org.nz

Graeme Smith
WBSF President


Graeme:

I believe your post qualifies for the title: "the horse's mouth." Thank you.

Mike

Wilbur
01-09-2008, 11:22 PM
I promised more than once that I would shut up about this but I guess I lied.

The team process is such that only those with the time and the money can possibly qualify. A younger fellow with a job can win all four grand aggs at the nationals and not qualify. To that, the argument is that he probably wouldn't be able to go anyway or that he might have just been lucky....which has no basis. He can't go anyway because he can't qualify under the system. If he could qualify, he might cash in some vacation, get a second mortgage and swing the deal. And...if he can't make it, maybe the next guy on the list can.

It's just not set up for everybody to have an equal chance to play and I don't like it that way. Sure, everybody is equally welcome to attend all the qualifying matches but that falls way short of equal opportunity.

If the sole intent is to send a winning team then hand me a pencil and paper and I'll quickly jot down a list and save us the trouble....or you do it. The list will be about the same either way.

Andy Shifflett
01-10-2008, 08:44 AM
My Region Director, Scott Hunter, has told me that the NBRSA is getting ready to address some of these issues. In fact, after what happenned at this years BOD's meeting, the BOD is getting ready to address a lot of things......jackie.

Jackie,

How many NBRSA members have no clue about the issues being discussed? As members of this organization are we not entitled to know? I wonder what the attendance at the world qualifying matches would be if all the members did know?

Andy

James A. Kelbly
01-10-2008, 11:02 AM
The Super Shoot is not registered this year and I do not in the future see it registered with any organization other than the WBSF. The last time we registered the Super Shoot with NBRSA we paid over 3000.00 to Eastern Region and NBRSA for shooters fees, we got put in the offical publication as a FILLER article in the back of the magazine and not even a complete top twenty listing. The biggest match in NBRSA is in the back of the magazine!!!!!!!!!! We've gotten better coverage in the magazine since we have NOT been registered. Figure that one out!!!

I really wish the Super Shoot was NOT included in the qualifing for the Worlds. My personal opinion on qualifing is to use the NBRSA Nationals only. IN todays qualifiying I could only qualify but not be able to travel to the Worlds due to the fact it costs too much to qualify and then travel to the Worlds. This is my opinion

As far as traveling twice to Phoenix, I seem to remember several Worlds ago you had to travel to Kelbly's twice to qualify. Who from the east wanted it to be equal back then!!!!!!!!!

I have spent all of my life in benchrest and I have seen several times the membership increase than decrease, I have heard that benchrest is going to be dead when all the oldtimers die. Well it has not died yet and I do not see it dieing in the future. We here at Kelbly's are still seeing a number of new shooters coming into benchrest. Not like we did several years ago, but we still are seeing new shooters. Ranges will come and go just as shooters will. Don't get me wrong I think we should always be looking for ways to increase ranges and membership.

At the NBRSA Nationals most of the directors were here, we had a membership meeting and NOBODY had any complaints, concerns, or suggestions to help our sport. Why since the inception of this benchrest board, NO ONE has spoke up at the annual meeting. This is your only opportunity to let our Directors know what you are thinking or feeling about the NBRSA and you let it go with nothing said. You need to step forward at these opportunities. I can remember membership meetings that lasted several hours because of the concerns for our sports.

I spent about ten years doing various jobs for NBRSA and unfortunetly business did not mix with the politics. As much as I love benchrest shooting, feeding my family became more important. Therefore I have chose to stay out of office in benchrest.

Just remember most jobs in this sport are volunteer and if you do not like something, by all means YOU volunteer your time and effort.

Jim

LARRY FEUSSE
01-10-2008, 12:10 PM
Here's an idea, pick 5 matchs where the attendance is expected to be somewhat similar, 2 in the east, 2 in the west, and 1 in the middle, give only the amount of points for each match that is equal to the number of points for the least well attended match of the 5, then allow shooters to accumulate points only on the best 3 out of the 5 matchs that they shot. In this way each match carries the same value, shooters from east or west or anywhere in between will not be discriminated against, and if a shooter either can't make it to one of the matches close to him or if he does bad and wants another chance he can make the long trip to the next match if he wants to.

Dave B
01-10-2008, 01:37 PM
If you have 5 qualifiers and pick the best 3 they only thing that will happen is
now, You have to addend all 5 with the hope of getting a better score of the best 3.
Dave B

JerrySharrett
01-10-2008, 02:09 PM
Here's an idea, pick 5 matchs where the attendance is expected to be somewhat similar, 2 in the east, 2 in the west, and 1 in the middle, .

Larry, I said that exact same thing in post #8 above.

Dave B, if a shooter wants to make all 5 in hopes of upping their chances then that would be that individuals decison, but they would not have to take 5 weeks vacation, for those who still work, and still have a pretty good chance with just 3.

Many of us are not World Team material to start with. The WT members are pretty much the cream year after year.

LARRY FEUSSE
01-10-2008, 02:19 PM
Jerry, you had a good idea, I just said it a little different to see if people were listening. At least you and I are paying attention, which is about all I can afford to pay. Larry

Graeme Smith
01-10-2008, 02:27 PM
Thanks for comments - I actually see it very positive that folk want to talk about the World Championships.

You are correct - NBRSA are the recognised body - they have the responsibility to send a Team/s to the Champs. Actually how they go about the selection process is for them to decide, recognising what the rules say.

Tuners - our rules make no comment about tuners. Therefore they are legal.

Originally we followed NBRSA rules on all matters however it was NBRSA preference that they did not wish to be directly involved and although they are still very similiar over the last few years we have gone our own direction. We of course keep very close tabs on what is happening around the place.

What we have endeavoured to do is to develop a common standard that is now part of 26 countries and continuing to grow.

I will be at the SS in May - anyone welcome to corner me and discuss any matters of interest.

Graeme Smith

hayseed
01-11-2008, 01:11 AM
For qualifying, perhaps if you had 5 events as described above -2 Eastern, 2 Western, and one in the middle. Any competitor could shoot up to 3 matches for qualifying, but only best 2 would count. Naturally, a shooter would have to say beforehand which events would be for record. Any shooter could shoot all 5 qualifiers, but only best 2 would count. Gives a competitor a chance to blow a match and still be ok.

I think it could be very very good for the sport. Not only to attract new participants, but to put the fire in the belly of a bunch of very experienced good shooters who never thought they might get a chance to shoot at world level.

I know there are a lot of hard-working competitive shooters who might only lack the financial freedom involved. I think some would really get serious (like Wilbur says) if they could qualify in 2 matches that were relatively close to home. I'm sure the time and expense involved in world comp is hefty and perhaps some might not be able to swing it, but man - what a cool opportunity!

Dusty Stevens
01-11-2008, 02:53 AM
I think the expense is what holds most folks up.

Mike Bryant
01-11-2008, 08:32 AM
For qualifying, perhaps if you had 5 events as described above -2 Eastern, 2 Western, and one in the middle. Any competitor could shoot up to 3 matches for qualifying, but only best 2 would count. Naturally, a shooter would have to say beforehand which events would be for record. Any shooter could shoot all 5 qualifiers, but only best 2 would count. Gives a competitor a chance to blow a match and still be ok.



The problem with having a best 2 or even best 3 out of 5 or 6 events is that each event would need to have the same total amount of points available for a best 2 or 3 out of 5 or 6 events to work.

With the points being based on the number of shooters who place behind you, the team membership as done in the past is decided by how you place at the larger events. The Super Shoot is a must attend event if you want to have a chance of making the world team as you can make as many points there with a good finish as you can at two or maybe three smaller events. With a poor finish at the Cactus you can make as many points as you would make by winning the Hog Roast. The Nationals is another must attend event with twice the number of points generally available there as the smaller events.

In 2006, there were three events in the east with two of them being at the same range with Kelblys hosting the Super Shoot and the Eastern regionals. The other match was the Hog Roast at Fairchance. The other three events were the East/West at St. Louis which is actually closer to the east coast than it is to the west coast, the Nationals at Raton which is a little closer to the west coast than the east coast and the Cactus at Phoenix which would be a west coast match. The US is a large country. I'm located app. in the middle of the US and it's a 1250 mile trip to go to Kelbly's from here and it was about 1350 for the Hog Roast. It's about 850 to go to Phoenix.

This year it looks like the qualifiers will be two in Phoenix and one in Ohio. Points wise, that would make somewhere about the same number of points available at Kelbly's as what would be available at Phoenix depending upon the number of competitors at each event. IMO, the Super Shoot and the Nationals should always be qualifying matches just because they are both the premier events in the US. As to where the matches are held, it doesn't seem to make much difference. It seems like you are always shooting against the best shooters in the US whether you are shooting on the east coast or the west coast as most of them make them all.

Just shooting the qualifiers can be pretty expensive, but from what I hear that's a drop in the bucket to the expense of actually making the team and going to wherever the world championship is held especially if it's out of the US.

jackie schmidt
01-11-2008, 08:51 AM
Expence, and the time envolved. Shooters ask me all of the time, "are you going to the Cactus". "Are you going to the Super Shoot" Well, the spring and summer are our busiest times of the year, there is no way I can take off and make a trip all the way out to Phoenix. The same for the Super Shoot. That trip takes a week out of your life, (at least), and persons like myself who have business responsibilities simply cannot just up and take off like that. It is not a matter of money, it is a matter of hours in the day.
Sure, I could dedicate what ever time I can take off make as many qualifyers as possible, and not even shoot any Region Matches. But, if everyone did that, the Regions would be in trouble for lack of attendence.
So shooters, like myself, simply cannot participate in the World Team concept. Heck, I doubt I could ever garnish enough points anyway, but there are shooters who do have the equipment and skill to make the World Team, but simply cannot dedicate the time and effort needed to earn a spot.
There really doesn't seem to be anything that wrong with the way the teams are chosen, The USA has been well represented in the past years.
We had a discussion at Rachels Glenn in October about this very subject. Some very well known shooters made the statement that while the USA has done well in the past, it is quite obvious that the rest of the World is catching up quickly. We need to send our best........jackie

Tom Libby
01-11-2008, 11:24 AM
Well as usual enven if this was a mebership meeting it is the same as always several debits about how to make things work, we never seem to get two people to agree let alone the whole membership. But if you don't change and try something different you will still have this conversation next year etc. Try something and if only part of it works then adjust what didn't go forward. The worst thing that could happen is you go backwards to what you thought was working and complain all over again.

AS to pick the quilifying match or matches for the world shoot it should be out Nationals. As of now we can just change the name from the Nationals to LEts ALL COME AND SHOOT MATCH, because that is all it is at present.

If you are set in having at least 5 qualifying then you should have at least the best 3 of 5 shoots for the world shoot, is it fair that all the best shooters from all over the world only get one week to shoot to see who is the best? We send 3 teams to the world and if your on team 3 you are not the best of the 12 members that went, but it seems to me that the 3rd team has won 1st place several times over our best team. So lets try our Nationals as the qualifying match to see how it works!
If we do that then I don't have to spend $6,000 to go to 3 shoots in the east and $600 to one in the west, and then I only have to take one vacation time to shoot the Nationals and save money and time. Then if I make the team I have over a year to save to go to the world shoot if I want, and mabe only shoot the local shoots on the off year and not travel to save the money for the world travel.

Tom Libby

Mike Bryant
01-11-2008, 06:41 PM
Tom and Lou, you couldn't get any simpler than that. The top 12 in the two gun or three gun at the Nationals would be the qualifiers. I'd bet attendance at the Nationals would certainly increase plus it would give top shooters like Jackie who can't take off time from work to make the qualifiers, but can make the nationals the shot at representing the US if they choose. The shoots like the Cactus or Super Shoot would still be well attended as they are when they aren't qualifiers.