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View Full Version : Who has used a Harmonic Deresonator on centerfire?



Pete K.
01-04-2008, 12:58 PM
I am an informal benchrest target shooter that at age 63 does not wish to invest in handloading equiptment or the time required to develop the sweet load for my Savage VLP-SS-S in .223. I shoot only one type of ammunition, Black Hills New Match 52gr. SP's. When I do my part the rifle/ammo combo will give 1/4" moa on 1" red stick on targets at 100 yrds.
After hours of searching I have found people on forums that swear that a harmonic tuner does help in consistancy and smaller groups. I don't require or want to thread my muzzle with a system like the Browning Boss that is mainly for large bore and recoil reduction. I was looking at the "QUE" system, see link. With this system you have to heat the end of the unit, slip it 1-3/4" onto the muzzle/barrel, let cool and it's on for good with something like a 6,000 lb./inch tightness. It requires a Dremel tool to cut it off if you wish to do away with it.
Now for the questions... Who of you has used one, with what caliber, what were your results/finding as to group reduction? Are you still using one? Whould you recommend this unit for target, better MOA results?
Do you know personaly of units that are better suited for this purpose or easier to install and remove without threading the barrel?
Keep in mind that this is to be used with a small bore .223
and recoil is not the main issue here but it would be reduced a little which can't hurt. How much louder will the muzzle blast be? The little .223 is already fairly loud and I don't wish to offend the shooters near me even with ear protection.
I would greatly appreciate all your input, experiences, and thoughts on using a tuner to gain accuracy with a small bore centerfire rifle.
Kindly mention brand name, manufactures name, where it can be purchased, a link if possible. Give details please.
Here is the link for the "QUE" system made under license from Browing "Boss".

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1540&title=ADJUSTABLE%20MUZZLE%20BRAKE#sku
Thank you all for your knowledge,

Pete K.

jackie schmidt
01-04-2008, 01:25 PM
In truth, anything that you can do to change the harmonics of a barrel will act like a tuner, and in affect, be able to help you find the sweet spot for a particular load.
The only drawback to this particular system is it uses a shrink fit to secure the assembly to the barrel. This will, in all likeyhood, cause the ID of the barrel to close a little, depending on how thin the cross section is at the muzzle. Whether this hurts accuracy or not can only be seen after you install the unit. I sure would not put one on a Benchrest Rifle unless it was secured by threads.
The makers of this unit are going for the market where extreme accuracy is not involved. By advertising that you do not have to thread the end of the barrel,they can increase the available market by quite a bit. I have seen the Browning Boss in action, and you can make a Rifle shoot better with a given brand of ammunition. That is the purpose of this unit. How much better depands on many factors besides barrel harmonics.
Pete, a word of advice when logging on to a site such as Benchrest.com and making statements about the accuracy potential of your Factory Rifle. When you said, "1/4 MOA when I do my part" automatically alienates about 90 percent of the shooters who frequent this site,because they know what is involved in obtaining that level of accuracy. Simply saying, "I have a very good shooting Savage that I wish to improve" would suffice.........jackie

Wilbur
01-04-2008, 01:46 PM
A quarter inch group is pretty good as is. Frankly, I wouldn't spend another nickel trying to improve on that.

pacecil
01-04-2008, 04:10 PM
Wilbur, you haven't learned to read shooters. When they say "when I do my part", what they mean is they don't get that small group every time and when they don't it must be their fault - not the gun's. They think the gun will shoot that small group everytime - they think it must always be really a "1/4 inch" rifle because it does it every now and then. Many shooters still love to read all sorts of things from that small group they shoot....such things as effect of tuning, effect of wind, effect of barrel vibration, effect of scope, effect of crown, effect of cleaning, and on and on!

Don
01-04-2008, 08:50 PM
Pete, a word of advice when logging on to a site such as Benchrest.com and making statements about the accuracy potential of your Factory Rifle. When you said, "1/4 MOA when I do my part" automatically alienates about 90 percent of the shooters who frequent this site,because they know what is involved in obtaining that level of accuracy. Simply saying, "I have a very good shooting Savage that I wish to improve" would suffice.........jackie

That was about the most diplomatic and well worded response to this subject that I have seen during my BR participation.

Jackie, we could use your talents in the diplomatic service corp. for Iraq.............wonder how much it pays?.................Don

Wilbur
01-05-2008, 01:20 AM
Wilbur, you haven't learned to read shooters. When they say "when I do my part", what they mean is they don't get that small group every time and when they don't it must be their fault - not the gun's. ....................

So what you're saying there is that you don't believe Pete's rifle is a 1/4 minute rifle, and further, I'm too dumb to know.......

My answer would be the same either way so why risk humiliating Pete. I like Pete. He came here and took the time to post a question. Jackie had already nicely presented the darker side of honesty.

What you said is very true. Not many will believe their average group is in fact the capability of their rifle. Even if it's not - it still is.

alinwa
01-05-2008, 03:20 AM
And there's folks on the other board claiming there are no real politicians left :p


You'se guys make me jealous, I ain't capable of greatness but I can RECOGNIZE IT!!! :D



LOL


al

RayfromTX
01-05-2008, 08:46 AM
Wow- where was all this diplomacy when my 1/4 inch Savage was really a 1/2' rifle with teaser groups. If I could have just counted 4 out of 5 shots in the group, I'd have been a winner at the club matches.

I could often beat a bench gun in a match and almost rose above last place in a yardage. I have since replaced that barrel with a Shilen match barrel in 6ppc. It still looks like a hunting rifle but it's agging capability should be good enough now to not come in last if a few other people don't do their part.

Sure my Benchrest rifle is far superior but getting tiny groups from my Savage gives me a David and Goliath feeling of satisfaction. Every 3/8" group convinced me that I was just around the corner from a 1/4" agg with my magic factory rifle. Getting involved in Benchrest has opened my eyes to what is possible and what is not important in the accuracy game.

Things like cleaning my brass before every reloading have fallen by the wayside, while using windflags are like putting on underwear.

Thanks to all the great people of this site for helping me get involved in this game.

Pete K.
01-05-2008, 05:36 PM
One and only one person had the courtesy to reply with any information to the question asked. Thank you Jackie Schmidt. Over the years I remember that you were a supporter of barrel tuners, barrel deresonators or whatever designition they are given. I also respect you for informing me that so many of the members on this forum may have an inferiority complex for one reason or another so I must refrain from detailing performance results, brand names of rifles, my honest beliefs such as "when I do my part" etc.
With so many talented and experienced shooters on this forum you would think that "doing my part" would mean to them not "pulling a shot, or tiring while sighting, improper cheek weld, incorrect trigger squeeze , or other". These human errors shurely can't be blamed on the rifle.
I have been a benchrest rimfire target shooter since the age of fourteen using a very good factory Winchester target rifle with good results. See Jackie I have learned to take your advice, no model or group sizes mentioned!! This is my first centerfire rifle. I purchased it in .223 caliber for choices or bullet gram weight for varmint hunting and paper shooting.
After a slow and extended break in period using nylon brushes and jags, one way only cleaning, a Mike Lucas bore guide and gentle cleaning methods I experimented with only Black Hills New Match ammunition. After evualating 60 gr, 68 gr, 55 gr, I found that 52gr, Match SPs were the best choice for target shooting.
I mention all this for those that only want to read what they want to read and for clarification. My basic questions such as "can you recomend tuners that YOU HAVE USED remain unanswered. Requests for any information such as your results, findings, feelings etc. also remain unanswered. Perhaps as Jackie stated maybe I have allienated 90% of the readers who have not had the thrill of shooting 1/4" MOA and I am sorry for that. Could it be that readers that own high end pricey rifles do not believe that the "Ugly Savage" can return such performance results? Remenber this is casual target shooting and no I don't shoot a 248 out of 250 score and I'm not indicating that I can.
Pacecil your reply had nothing at all to offer in reply to an honest question.
You sir just took the time to inform others of your "people reading skills" and contributed NO answers or informed knowledge to my question. I will only take your reply as "you are above such questioning and refuse to offer advice to someone in need of honest answers, or you don't have the wisdom, experience or desire to help others. I wish you deep snow sir!!
Wilbur thank you for your offering me your defense. I thank you for your kindness. "Kindness", now that's a nice word, perhaps I will adopt that concept for the New Year.
I will invest in a Rifle Basic SAV2 trigger to replace my 1.6LB Accua trigger. I will not be adding a harmonic tuner because no one has come foward with personal experiences. I for the present time will stay with Black Hills products and do the best I can. I WILL post some target pictures here for you non believers to evualate. I am returning to Savageshooters.com where the folks are friendly, down to earth, happy to help and just a great group of people that enjoy the sport and helping others. I always find friendly shooters while at the range that offer their rifles for me to try or their ammo, will ask for my help with their equiptment, will sit down for a cup of coffee after. I guess not to many here are that friendly in their nature as I have learned from your replies.

Have a great friggin New Year!!

Pete K.

Jerry Dailey
01-05-2008, 06:15 PM
First of all let me say that if you can shoot (5) -5 shot groups under match conditions and have an agg under .250, That you could probally compete with that rifle. Altho I have agged in the teens with custom rigs; I have seen times that I would appreciate a .250 aggerate. Let me also say that one good group dosent make an aggerate, and a (5) - 5 shot ag is what its all about. Why dont you show the naysayers and bring your rifle to one of our matches? You would be welcomed, treated with respect, and find pleanty of friendly people willing to help you. I Did!

Boyd Allen
01-05-2008, 07:19 PM
Pete,
To answer your question directly, friends have played with the Sims Deresonator and found that, after finding the correct position on the barrel, that it improved accuracy, but not in every case, or to the same extent when it did. I have talked to a couple of fellows who have had both Browning and Winchester rifles that came with the Boss system, and they both said that it made a difference, although both were on 7 mags, and the level of accuracy that they attained was not 1/4".

I have the SAVII trigger, and I think that you will enjoy it. It will adjust down to an honest 4 oz., and on the rifle that it is on (heavy) it allows for true free recoil shooting.

I have also used one of Jackie’s tuners in conjunction with a Deresonator, and it is my opinion that the barrel was improved by both.

I have never heard of anyone that tried the tuner that you asked about.

As to the 1/4-inch thing, it is a matter of definition. Around here, when you say 1/4" accuracy it is assumed that you mean something quite different than is meant in the rest of the world. By our definition and experience there are no 1/4" factory rifles. That is not to say that no factory rifle has ever shot a 1/4" group. BTW, I am a huge Savage fan, having written an article for PS, a number of years ago that was, in part, about the trigger that you are about to install.

Enjoy your hobby, and come back and visit with us from time to time.

Boyd

Pete K.
01-05-2008, 07:50 PM
First of all let me say that if you can shoot (5) -5 shot groups under match conditions and have an agg under .250, That you could probally compete with that rifle. Altho I have agged in the teens with custom rigs; I have seen times that I would appreciate a .250 aggerate. Let me also say that one good group dosent make an aggerate, and a (5) - 5 shot ag is what its all about. Why dont you show the naysayers and bring your rifle to one of our matches? You would be welcomed, treated with respect, and find pleanty of friendly people willing to help you. I Did!

Quote from my original post; Remenber this is casual target shooting and no I don't shoot a 248 out of 250 score and I'm not indicating that I can".

Jerry,
I did not say anywhere that I nor my Savage Model 12VLP-SS single shot .223 was a competitive benchrest rifle. I am asking if a barrel harnonic deresonator will help with factory loads to improve groups, ie. to overcome some minor diviations in FPS, gram weight, powder charge etc. I like everone else only want to improve on what I have.
I understand the difference between a $3,500 competition rifle say a David Tubb for .223 and a factory gun. Believe me I wish I had the finances to buy such a firearm. I met an older gentleman at our range that told me he knew nothing about target shooting but trusted in a gun smith to order something that he would be proud to use. He was using (not to my desires) a fully custom upper and lower AR style rifle with custom grips, tuned barrel, chamber and, benchrest stock. He was sporting a Swarovski target scope at around $2,100 and purchased handloads from the FFL dealer!! Sure he was seeing nearly one hole groups at 100 yards. He had more $ in his scope than I have in my entire setup.
My desire is to find information on Centerfire barrel deresonatiors... PERIOD!! Do they work, who has used one on what rile, caliber, to what improvement etc. This information is for me to evualate for my own requirements.
I do not challenge the sucesses of true benchrest competitiors whos historys I have followed. God bless them in their pursuits and titles. They deserve their recognition.
I just want information to help improve a very good factory rifle, and that is all. Seriously. I do not wish to challenge anyone having success in this quest for accuracy. Isn't that what it's all about? Now how about answering my original questions reguarding personal experience, brand name, supplier, your results, feelings, bottom line etc? Can you come up with some usefull information please? Should I consider this forum hostile and just forget the quest?
Pete K.

Pete Wass
01-05-2008, 08:01 PM
First of all let me say that if you can shoot (5) -5 shot groups under match conditions and have an agg under .250, That you could probally compete with that rifle. Altho I have agged in the teens with custom rigs; I have seen times that I would appreciate a .250 aggerate. Let me also say that one good group dosent make an aggerate, and a (5) - 5 shot ag is what its all about. Why dont you show the naysayers and bring your rifle to one of our matches? You would be welcomed, treated with respect, and find pleanty of friendly people willing to help you. I Did!

Pete didn't claim to be shooting 5 group aggs here. He simply stated the his Savage would shoot a .250. I don't doubt that. I have seen it myself.

Pete:

A friend bought one of those Limb Saver doughnuts to put on his Rem Varmint Special. It reduced his group size by 1/2. He , at this point is wishing he had bought a Savage like the ones one of his friends has that shoots little ones.Those doughnuts are not very expensive so I would try one if I were you.

If isn't difficult at all to work up loads yourself and roll your own. I use to have a Rem 788 Bench rifle that had a 223 minimum SAMMI chamber in it and it shoots tiny ones as long as there is not much wind. I found that Nosler Ballistic tip bullets in the Varmint pack and H-4895 was extremely productive.

Have fun with your Savage but remember, them barrels don't last forever. Use it WISELY. :D Pete

alinwa
01-05-2008, 08:11 PM
OUCHHH!!

????


:(


sorry guy


alinwa


out

Wilbur
01-05-2008, 10:44 PM
"With so many talented and experienced shooters on this forum you would think that "doing my part" would mean to them not "pulling a shot, or tiring while sighting, improper cheek weld, incorrect trigger squeeze , or other". These human errors shurely can't be blamed on the rifle."

That's it exactly! The human errors you list are largely not possible with a benchrest rifle. The design of the rifle and rests eliminate that stuff. Given that these errors exist within your system, it would be difficult to add a tuning device and appreciate any difference in average group size. As before, the cost won't likely be justified.

ShelleyDavidson
01-06-2008, 11:55 AM
You probably won't be able to see a heck of a lot of difference in the way a factory rifle shoots, with or without a tuner. BUT... to answer your question:

I know nothing about the tuner you're asking about but a movable weight muzzle tuner works very well. We have two major ways to tune our rifles. One is to increase or decrease the powder charge so as to speed or slow the bullet so that it exits the barrel at the best point in a vibration swing.

The second is to install a muzzle tuner that speeds up, or slows down the vibration swing. Screwing a muzzle tuner out (away from the action) accomplishes the same thing as increasing the powder charge. Instead of speeding up the bullet, it slows the swing so as to give the bullet more time to get to the muzzle at the best exit point. Think about a metronome, one of those things that sits on top of the music teacher's piano. It goes tick tock and speeds up or slows according to the position of a little weight that can move up or down on it's pendulum. A muzzle tuner is simply a metronome for a barrel.

Yesterday, I took Tinker Toy to the range with a newly re-chambered Bartlein barrel. I increased the powder till I had the bullet speed I wanted (2980fps, 30 cal 118 gr.) I was still getting a bit of vertical so I dialed the tuner out 1/8 turn and shot a group. I then dialed the tuner out another 1/8 turn and was in tune at the sweet spot that I wished to shoot. Dialing out away from the reciever, with a tuner, accomplishes the same thing as increasing the powder load. As the day heated, twice I adjusted the tuner back towards the receiver by 1/8 turns and stayed in tune all day with the same powder load. As soon as I get the graduations lazer etched on the weight, I'll try to match the moves with density altitude. We already have the DA calculated for 6ppc with a certain contour barrel that's cut at the proper points to make it work with our formula.

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