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L COOK
01-01-2008, 02:00 PM
CAN SOMEONE E MAIL ME A PICTURE Of A 52E. WINCHESTER ........E MAIL TO
COOKIEMAN@triad.rr.com

Fred J
01-01-2008, 02:17 PM
Larry.
The only difference in a E model vs a D model, is the letter "E" at the end of th SN. Extrernally, they both look the same to me. Some were also put in Free Style stocks, but so were some D's

Brian Voelker
01-01-2008, 02:33 PM
Fred
I am pretty sure the E was the only one drilled and tapped for receiver bases from the factory and the crown was recessed 1/2" (back bored) also. Other wise they used the same parts and options.
BV

seewin
01-01-2008, 03:42 PM
All the E actions had a flat milled on bottom for the recoil lug which was used only on the Internationals. None the less, all the E actions had this. Also, the stock does not have provisions for the barrel tuning adjustment that the D's used. The barrel was counterbored(recessed) about 1/2" diameter x 3/8" deep on all E models except the std wt barrel model,it did not have a recess. All E actions were drilled and tapped on front and rear of receiver for bases. The barrels were also drilled/tapped for the target style bases. The E models had the "E" preceeding the s/n, where the earlier guns had the letter designation at the end of the s/n. The cartridge loading ramp was also slightly different, to make it feed better than the D. Those are all the differrences I can think of off the top of my head.
Steve

Charlie Murray
01-01-2008, 05:43 PM
My E model also has the bolt handle that is flat on the upper side so it will clear a low mounted scope easier.Not Sure all E models came with this.

Good Luck,

Charlie

BMoore
01-01-2008, 06:26 PM
I have a very nice origional D that is drilled for bases on the receiver in addition to the barrel blocks for scope mounting.

Brian

seewin
01-01-2008, 07:25 PM
Most of the E's had the flat top bolt handle. It was actually an investment casting, apparently a cost-saving measure. Some of the very early E's did in fact have the round shank bolt handle as used on the previous models.
Steve

Fred J
01-01-2008, 07:50 PM
In Herbert G. Houze's book, "The Winchester 52" It tells about the actual differences in Chapter Eight, "The Model 52 Type D & E" Page 155. Lots of photo's to boot. I tried to scan them, but my scan malfunctioned. Sorry about that. Most differences are cosmetic and difficult to see with one photgraph.

seewin
01-01-2008, 08:46 PM
Herbert Houze does not really go into much detail on the E or D model. In fact page 163 contains a picture of what is titled a "Standard production Model 52 Type E International Prone Match Rifle". This is in fact not an Internationa Prone, it is the standard "Marksman" style E target. He also states that only 1 style of 52E was made, that being the "International Prone". This chapter has created a great deal of misunderstanding concerning the 52E. He goes on to state that there were only 37 examples made which is totally inaccurate. The gun was made in 4 production configurations: 2 Marksman styles, the standard weight barrel version, and the heavy weight barrel version. It was also made in International Match configuration, and International Prone Match configuration. The latter being the rarest bird with only 37 of that particular configuration manufactured. There is no picture of the International Prone in Houze's book. It had a stock with a very high removable cheekpiece. This was necessary to allow the cleaning of the rifle through the breech.
I mention this only because so many readers take the information in his book as gospel.
Steve

BrianJ
01-01-2008, 10:21 PM
Amen Steve,

"The" book raises its ugly head again, just like clockwork. Unfortunately it will, in all likelyhood continue to periodically do so.
I might add Houze used the eqivilent of two pages to inaccurately describe the "E" model. He might have filled ten pages doing it in a correct and accurate manner.
The section on the "E" is not the only problem here. The "D" information in the same chapter is equally lacking in correctness.

bjm

Fred J
01-01-2008, 11:54 PM
You both have more information about the 52E than anyone. Please tell us where we can get this same updated info. You make those of us the have used the BOOK, look and sound like idiots.

seewin
01-02-2008, 09:47 AM
Fred,
Unfortunately, this info is not printed in any one place, and for the most part is not printed at all. My info comes from 20 years of collecting, shooting, researching, talking to other collectors in the know such as BrianJ, and former factory employees concerning these fine rifles. Herb Houze, in his book on the 52, really did a great job on the development on the model 52, especially the early variations. Unfortunately he just kind of left the D&E dangling, and the info he did print was questionable at best and some parts are downright wrong. It's almost like he got in a hurry to finish it up and did not do his due diligence.
I was fortunate to have a friend who was a former Winchester executive that hooked me up with some of the later drawings as well as those responsible for their production.
One of the major hurdles was trying to get an accurate count on the number of 52E's actually manufactured. For you Precision Shooting readers, you might recall an article written by George Stephens back about 5 years?? ago. In the article he requested anyone that had a D or E model send him their serial number with a description of the gun and its configuration. This has been ongoing research and as of the last few months, the number of E's that have been accounted for is approximately 200 rifles. That pretty much dispelled the statement of Houze that only 37 were made! I would encourage anyone that has a D or E to please send their info to George. Hopefully when enough info is accumulated he can be persuaded to write another article clearing up some of misleading info that is being passed around currently.
Anyone interested in helping out can forward their information directly to George at geoice@gwu.edu, or you can send to me and I will forward on to George. My email is seewinr@aol.com. All information will be kept confidential and no person's name and s/n will ever be published unless permission is granted by the owner.
Also, I'm always happy to try to answer any specific questions you might have on your 52, just email me at the above email address.
Steve

JohnnyO
01-02-2008, 11:25 AM
Seewin: I have been collecting 52's for thirty years and never have seen the 52E standard barrel advertised as a production model. I am sure a few exist because of George Stephens research. I would love to see this information on the standardweight barrel E's if this is possible.

vicvanb
01-02-2008, 01:28 PM
Fred
I am pretty sure the E was the only one drilled and tapped for receiver bases from the factory and the crown was recessed 1/2" (back bored) also. Other wise they used the same parts and options.
BV

The "C" model 52 was the first drilled and tapped at the factory. "A" and "B" models were not.

vicvanb
01-02-2008, 01:34 PM
Regarding M52 production numbers, The Bluebook of Gun Values a few years ago listed a very low number of M52 Sporters that were produced--many fewer than were actually made. For some time after that, ads for Sporters cited that number as fact and some collectors were misled into thinking Sporters were much more rare than they are.

Fred J
01-02-2008, 01:38 PM
I've never seen a 52C or D, D/T except later on by the owner or smith. Could be mistaken, only based on my 42 years of dealing with 52's. I'm not a collector, just a shooter.

seewin
01-02-2008, 01:55 PM
I hope I don't confuse matters worse, but the first 52 with a drilled/ tapped receiver from the factory was the 52C sporter. The C target rifles were not d/t from factory. The D target rifles were not d/t from factory. All E models were d/t at factory.
Steve

JohnnyO
01-02-2008, 05:13 PM
Seewin is right about 52c sporters. They were the first 52's to be drilled on the receivers. But I have to disagree with him on the 52D's. The early d's(pre-64) They started production in 1962 and up to the late 60's were not drilled and tapped but the late D's in the 1970's were. In the winchester 1970 catalog it clearly shows a 52D drilled and tapped. All the 52E's were drilled. Another note of interest: I keep hearing these guys crying about herb Houze 52 book that they made only 37 52E's. What he meant to say was that they only made 37 52E international prones. This gun was special order from the factory only for a couple of years.(1975 to 1977). It was probably not a good seller because most people went with the 52 international. The gun on page 163 of the 52 book was mistakenly labeled as a 52E international prone and should have been a 52E prone. Yes there are some mistakes in the 52 book but very damn few. They seem to be primarly in the 52D and E sections. Herb was curator at the winchester museum in Cody,Wyoming and had access to what little records and guns they had. The book is more history than detailed information. I still applaud him for the effort.

seewin
01-02-2008, 07:04 PM
JohnnyO, I cannot say for certain that the very very late D's did not have some d/t'd units shipped. I can say that far and away the very high majority of D's were not drilled and tapped. I have D's into the 122,500 range and they are not drilled and tapped. The D's don't go much further than that. I also have an E in the late 122,500 range that is d/t'd. Sure there were exceptions, I have also heard of later E's built to D configurations. I truley believe these are anomalies and were not ever standard production. As far as the 70 catalog picture, take a closer look, it is a E model with a flat bolt handle.
You also questioned the std wt E model rifles. I own 2 of these and there is no doubt in my mind they are original. As far as your question concerning advertising of the std wt E model, Winchester did list a std and hvy wt barrel option in their catalog up through 1973 as I recall. This was well into the E production. They were also listed as available in the Shooter's Bible up to at least 1977. Of course the E's were always listed and advertised as D's and Winchester never changed their description to an E all the way untill the end of production. Again, Winchester could have just been trying to get rid of old stock, but they were advertised, and I know for a fact others have been substantiated. I might add, that they use the D style stock with narrow barrel channel and barrel tuners.
I don't think anyone is "crying" about Houze's book either. I was just stating that the D&E section look's like it was done in haste and has some errors that have created quite a bit of misunderstanding about those models. I cannot begin to recall the number of "International Prone E's" that have been offered to me with the statement that " there were only 37 of these made", only to end up being standard Marksman stocked target rifles. This is a direct result of what Houze meant to say and show in his book but didn't. I agree with you, and yes, an avid collector will know and be aware of this mistake, a person just wanting to educate himself about 52's will not. It is a great book, and yes it is more of a history book, and most of the history deals with the early development. I applaud him for his efforts, I certainly would not want to take on the task.
Steve

BrianJ
01-02-2008, 08:37 PM
John,

Please consider this as another voice being heard, not a whine. The "some mistakes" we are talking about are not just the printed errors but omissions as well.
Yes, I also applaud him for the effort but by the same token reserve the right of dissatisfaction in the "D"&"E" section. In this area the Houze book has done the greatest disservice to owners and collectors by doing poor research and printing inaccurate, misleading data where the "D" & "E" are concerned.

To make matters worse the 2006 reprint has no corrections. A friend in the publishing industry finds it most unprofessional to authorize a reprint knowing that a given book needs corrections.

Yes, I'm glad he did the book but I don't happen to like this particular chapter nor his not correcting the problem areas.

bjm

JohnnyO
01-03-2008, 02:35 PM
Seewin you said that the 1970 catalog couldn't be a D because it has a flat bolt handle. Thanks to George Stephens and his research he has shed alot light concerning the D and the E. If you look at his article in precision magazine(Sept. 2006) page74; he talks about a transition 52D that has all the features of a 52E including A Flat bolt handle. Serial number 12244xD. That leaves open that the gun pictured in the 1970 winchester catalog could be a 52D with a flat bolt handle and a drilled receiver. I know you have done alot of research and so have I; but when it comes to the D's and E's there seems to be alot more of speculation than facts. Winchester really left us in the blind when they never mentioned the E's.

seewin
01-03-2008, 03:18 PM
John, I think this post is getting off the original intent, and we are probably boring the rest of the readers to death. Never the less, I still believe the picture in the 1970 catalog is an E model. My reasoning is that the E's were well into production by that time. Yes, it could be a D, I just think the evidence points to it being an E. You mention George's comment on the transition D #12244X as having E attributes. I own 12245XD which is an International, and It has the D round bolt handle which it should. I think you will find many more early E's with D bolt handles than late D's with E bolt handles. Not that it matters, and yes you are correct, there is a lot more speculation than facts when it comes to these late guns. Winchester is no different than any other manufacturer, they tried their best not to waste anything that could be used, and if the assembler got down to the bottom of the box of bolt handles and found a few obsolete ones that would still work, their is not a doubt in my mind that he used them. They could care less that a handfull of guys would try to figure all this out 30+ years later. It's no different than what you see in the pre 64 model 70's. The forged front sight ramp was officially changed to the sweated-on ramp in 1952, however you will see rifles in the more obscure, slow selling calibers with forged ramps clear up into the mid to late 50's. I guess that is one of the reasons they hold my interest.
Steve

JohnnyO
01-03-2008, 05:15 PM
I agree with you. The poor man that started this thread, just wanted to see a picture of a 52E. Sorry sir that we took it this far. Before I go I would like to hear from someone who has ever come across any article that talks about a 52E in the 60's. I know gun writers and if winchester brought out a E serial number and called it a 52D then somebody would ask Questions. Their has to be some information somewhere. Maybe with all these shooters on this forum,someone might have purchased a 52D and got a 52E instead(in the 60s). Your information would be helpful. Thanks!

seewin
01-03-2008, 05:55 PM
John, I second that appeal. There has to be some shooters that bought some of these when they first came out.
Steve

Single Shot
01-03-2008, 06:18 PM
Hi guys,
Interesting thread about the Win 52's. I've had more than my share and just looked at some of my old records as follows:
Win. 52-E, # E-125258, Standard Heavy Barrel.
Win. 52-E, International Match, # E-122617.
Win. 52-E, International Match, # E-124498.
Win. 52-E, International Prone, # E-124184.
Win, 52-E, International Prone, # E-124585.

Kind of odd if only 37 International Prone 52's were made and I had two of them, usually I'm not that lucky.
If anyone needs any more Info on theses let me know and I'll dig a bit deeper into my files, I think I bought most of then new around 1975, 1980 period.
S/S

gr8guns
01-03-2008, 06:49 PM
"All the E actions had a flat milled on bottom for the recoil lug which was used only on the Internationals. None the less, all the E actions had this. Also, the stock does not have provisions for the barrel tuning adjustment that the D's used. The barrel was counterbored(recessed) about 1/2" diameter x 3/8" deep on all E models except the std wt barrel model,it did not have a recess. All E actions were drilled and tapped on front and rear of receiver for bases. The barrels were also drilled/tapped for the target style bases. The E models had the "E" preceeding the s/n, where the earlier guns had the letter designation at the end of the s/n. The cartridge loading ramp was also slightly different, to make it feed better than the D. Those are all the differrences I can think of off the top of my head."

My e model is original in every respect. The muzzle is not crowned. The stock does indeed have the adjustment screws and it came this way with the rifle. It is a heavy barrel. Serial number is 1237XX. It is the best shooting Winchester 52 in my stable, and I have a few.

Nothing is cut and dried with the Winchester 52 (originals).

Happy Shooting !

I will post a picture now.

seewin
01-03-2008, 06:58 PM
I would be interested to know if yours has the flat on the bottom of the action. I have looked at and own a bunch of E's. I have never seen a heavy barrel w/o the recessed crown(std wt barrels, yes). However as you say, nothing is cast in stone with Winchester. I can assure the vast majority have the recessed crown, and no tuning provisions for barrel, but there is always the exception with Winchester.
Steve

JohnnyO
01-03-2008, 07:05 PM
Hey single shot thanks for listing your guns. There are people out there,including me who would love to have one of those international prones. The 52 internationals are impressive also. There is a man by the name of George Stephens who would love to talk to you. He is doing a serial number project on the D and E's and would like information on each individual gun. I know your help would be appreciated. You can contact him at: geoice@gwu.edu. Thanks again!

BrianJ
01-03-2008, 07:11 PM
I think exactly the facts.
I would suggest your rifle is a transition model. Winchesters intention was to phase out the "D" rifle and replace it with the new "E". The "D" stayed in production as long as parts allowed after introduction of the "E". When the "D" receivers were depleted "E" receivers took their place as planned. However, in your case the inventory of "D" barrels and stocks remained and were utilized until exhausted. (Just good business practice)
Because of the circumstances involved in a phase out/in most any combination may be expected.
Original yes and I believe explainable.

bjm

Single Shot
01-03-2008, 08:41 PM
Johnny0,
I'll send him the numbers, and any other Info he may want. I forgot I have one more International Match,
# E-124398, bought new.This one and one other one has the Kenyon factory installed trigger.

I just checked my records and # E-124585 International Prone, and # E-122617 International Match, were bought used, these two were bought at Camp Perry and were in 98/99 % like new condition but no box's. All the others were bought new.
S/S

JohnnyO
01-03-2008, 09:40 PM
Single shot: Man thats one hell of a collection of 52E's. That will really help Mr. Stephens alot. My international has the Kenyon trigger also. I was checking out your serial numbers to see if my E123451 was close to yours but it wasn't. Hey keep me in mind if you ever want to sell one of those international prones or know of one for sale. Thanks again!

geoice
01-04-2008, 10:13 AM
Just a short comment for Johnny O. You ask if anyone has anyone ordered a 52D and received an E in the 1960s? I can't help there but I have in my file a xerox of a Winchester factory invoice for eight Winchester 52Ds, each listed individually by sn and all are numbered as 52Es but are itemized as Ds. This invoice is from late in the production cycle, 1978 or '79, I'd have to check which. To date, that's the ONLY piece of definitive evidence that I have seen that bears on this question.

I haven't checked my file lately but I've got more than 300 serial numbers for 52Ds and over 200 for the E. Each new number is important in that I think I can begin to see manufacturing trends - that is there seem to be blocks where a particular model (e.g. International Match or Intl Prone) was made. Many of the 52D CMP rifles seem to also fall in blocks, probably related to particular contracts.

Not to pile on Herb Houze, who wrote a magnificent book (I've almost worn out my original copy) but the sn data show that he is incorrect in his statement that large sn blocks werre left unmanufactured. The numbers I have are uniformly spread through the entire range for both models. If there are gaps, they are limited to a couple hundred rifles AT MOST. As new numbers come in, these gaps get smaller.

If anyone wants to contribute serial numbers to this project, I guarantee absolute confidentiality in terms of ownership info and I would use your entire number in print only if it were historically significant (i.e. the lowest or highest number of a model, etc.) The complete number is much more use than a partial number because of their role in filling gaps (two x-ed out digits leave an ambiguity of almost 100 numbers). Details as to stock type, barrel weight, bolt configuration, muzzle counterbore, trigger, purchase date, etc. are welcome.

I guarantee an individual response to your e-mail and absolute security for your identity.

George Stephens
geoice@gwu.edu

Single Shot
01-04-2008, 03:44 PM
Johnny0,
I hope I didn't mislead anyone into thinking that I still own all of theses, I did at one time but not now, the only one I have now is an International Match number E-124398

I've owned a lot of different 52's over the past 40 years or so but at this time I'm down to one 52-C Target and the one 52-E.
S/S

Single Shot
01-04-2008, 04:06 PM
George Stephens,
Please feel free to use the six E numbers I posted in full. I don't have a problem with posting full numbers as I have no reason to hide any of the numbers.

There was nothing special about any of theses guns, the three International Match guns were all the same and came in a heavy cardboard box with all the "stuff", the only difference between them was that two of them had the factory installed Kenyon triggers, the two International Prone guns were the same and had the standard triggers of that time. If you need any other Info on then let me know.
S/S

seewin
01-04-2008, 09:06 PM
L COOK, did you ever get your picture? Don't you regret ever asking such a simple question? Let me know if you did not get a picture and I will email you one. You will have to let me know what type you want to see with what options??
Steve

Fred J
01-04-2008, 10:51 PM
But he might like yours as well.