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harrydeneen
12-30-2007, 01:31 PM
SHOOTS IN THE WIND IS A RARE PIECE..NOT TO STEP ON BC THREAD I WILL START MY OWN SINCE I HAVE A LITTLE EXPERIENCE WITH WIND, BARREL , CHAMBER ,AMMO, LUBE ECT... I KNOW SHOOTERS WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION .. BUT THERE IS NO BLACK AND WHITE ANSWER.. WE CAN ONLY GO BY WHAT I CALL PROCESS OF ELIMINATION.. I WILL GIVE MY OPINION ON SOME OF THE QUESTIONS ASK.. I THINK SHOOTERS THAT HAVE ALOT OF EXPERIENCE SHOOTING OVER THE YEARS IN THE WIND EVERY WEEK WILL HAVE A BETTER INSIGHT THAN SOME ONE WHO ONLY SHOOTS IN GOOD CONDITIONS TO TEST RIFLES AND AMMO.. I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR SOME OF YOU TO GIVE SOME EXAMPLES OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU IN SOME MATCHES THAT YOU SHOT FROM WEEK TO WEEK.. ALL INPUT WOULD BE A HELP TO SOME ONE IN SOME WAY.. I WILL GIVE A EXAMPLE THAT ALOT OF YOU CAN RELATE TO BECAUSE THIS HAPPENED AT THE ARA NATIONALS A FEW YEARS BACK AND THERE WERE ALOT OF OBSERVERS.. I STARTED OUT SHOOTING MY SUHL THAT WAS JUST REBARRELED. IT WAS WINDY AND THE WIND WOULD MOVE THE BULLETS AROUND FROM FIFTY TO FIFTY.. I THEN WENT AND GOT MY TURBO THAT HAS A PERFECT CHAMBER IN IT AS MY SUHL HAD.. BOTH HIGHLY POLISHED AND MARK FREE .. THE TURBO SHOT RINGS AROUND THE SUHL IN THE WIND. THEY BOTH WERE EQUAL IN CALM CONDITIONS.. I THINK I SHOT AROUND A 2300 WHEN WITH THE OTHER GUN I COULD NOT GET OFF THE SIGHTERS AND ONLY HAD A FEW MINUTES LEFT TO SHOOT THE WHOLE TARGET.. THESE BOTH WERE LILJA BARRELS AND SIXTEEN TWIST.. MY FIRST SUHL WOULD ALSO SHOOT IN ANY KIND OF WIND AND IT WAS A SEVENTEEN TWIST.. MY FIRST CONCLUSION FROM EXPERIENCE IS THAT A POLISHED CHAMBER DOES NOT MEAN MUCH IN THE WIND... SECOND HOW MANY OF YOU SHOOTERS HAVE GOT GUNS THAT SHOOT GOOD IN THE WIND AND HAVE SOME MARKS IN THEM ?.. WHAT SAY YOU SHOOTERS ON THIS MATTER? I HAVE MY THOUGHTS ON THIS AND WILL GET TO SOME OF THEM IN MORE DETAIL LATER.... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:... HARRY..

Bill Myers
12-30-2007, 01:58 PM
Harry,Hope your holiday was great,I agree with you on the chambers & the ability to shoot in the Wind,I do not think that Calfee is wrong,But rather ,His data that he collects is from Rifles that he shoots on his home range,There are a whole lot of variables that are present when one steps up to the bench on a unfamiliar range & things go wrong very fast,We have been there & seen it happen.One needs to see a lot of different conditions to be able to draw a concrete conclusion on a theory.I do not Burnish my chambers,However i do deburr the leade angle,I think that a chamber is as close as perfect as it can get if you have set everything up correct & dailed in,The chamber will burnish itself & it will still be in perfect alignment with the bore.I did a chamber on a test & it was a mirror finish,I did not make any noticable difference,except that the cases came out black.I think that there are shooters that have a special ability to shoot in windy conditions & it does not matter what rifle that you have,you can not beat them on certain days,Gaston proved that in St Louis this year,He flat out shot everyone there,& he could of done it with any good rifle that he shot.There are not any Magic rifles out there,One needs some luck & good ammo,But above all else,confidence in his or her ability to handlw what ever mother nature sends.A Calfee,Myers ,Messer or who ever gun will not bail you out if you shoot stupid. BILL

Kent Owens
12-30-2007, 02:20 PM
Harry, Bill,
Hope you guys had a nice Christmas and wish you a Happy New Year. I can relate what I've noticed in my limited experience shooting at different ranges in all types of conditions. I've noticed that some barrels/rifle combos favor some conditions and hate others. I have a couple that are predictable in different wind conditions, meaning they aren't wind resistant but act as you'd expect in a 10 oclock wind, 4 oclock wind, etc.. I tested another barrel for a while that was 16 twist and .217-.2215 bore .2250 straight chamber, 2 degree leade, with about 2 tenths choke in it that shot great in calm but very poor in windy conditions, drifted a lot. Couldn't get used to the drift. It shot well, just had to hold off a ring or more for the same conditions, than I did with my other barrel? Was it the barrel or ammo? The rifle would shoot groups in the .1's in calm conditions. I set it aside for an indoor barrel, but haven't yet tested it indoors.
I agree with Bill that if you don't pay attention to the flags it makes no difference on who made the rifle. Still, it helps if you have a rifle capable of shooting in the .0's and .1's and know what conditions it prefers to do that in.
On my 17.5 twist and 16.5 twist barrels, I'd give the edge to the 17.5 twist in deflection by about the width of a target line, how ever many thousanths that is? Not much!

T-R-SINK
12-30-2007, 05:37 PM
Let me add something else to this thread. At the old Tuckertown barn I shot a world record at the barn, a 749 and 56 Xs the ammo that I was useing was the Eley Tenex (the Red Box) I still have a brick and I have tired this ammo at different ranges and the barn at acquadale. The rifle is the turbo that Bill Calfee built, I can not get the ammo to shoot at anyplace. I wish someone could explain this to me. Today if I ordered some ammo from Bob and this lot was in it I would cull it first.

Kent Owens
12-30-2007, 06:46 PM
Tom.
I sure can't answer your question but had a similar thing happen in 2006. I had a good lot of ammo that I shot a 749-57X and a couple more 749's and a few 748's outdoors. I took it to Rocky River Barn and it wouldn't shoot for beans there. I ended up borrowing some ammo from Gary Lemons to shoot the match that weekend. The ammo was awesome outdoors, but pitiful indoors? I shot several more 250's with it outdoors after the indoor match. It just wasn't the right ammo for indoors, why, I can't say? It wasn't the wind, that's for sure.

Renegade
12-30-2007, 06:59 PM
My 40X with it's 16 twist, 6 groove Hart barrel is a proven shooter. It's shot 250's at every range I've ever shot it at, except for one, and has shot multiple 249's at that one. With ammo it likes, and proper tune, I still hold off into the 9 ring, or sometimes even the 8, in winds over 10mph. It shoots like Kent said, predictable. Good ammo will do the exact same thing every time in the same wind. If any round on a target goes "into the wind" or flies high or low, I KNOW it's my fault.

I borescoped this rifle for the first time at the IR50/50 Nat. at Canastota this year, and found a huge scratch straight through the chamber, just barely into the leade at 12'oclock. I won the 4-Gun this year with this gun( and placed 2nd last year). This thread has me wondering if I'd be able to hold closer to the ten ring if the scratch wasn't there? I'm more inclined to think that the 23" inches of barrel after the chamber has more of an effect on how the gun shoots. Either way, I wish I hadn't looked at the barrel with the borescope!
Todd

tim
12-30-2007, 08:36 PM
Mr. Sink, you raise a great point as well. It seems to be increasinly more apparant that with some big indoor matches the last couple years that we have great guns that shoot outdoors with or without some wind and then we have "barn" guns for lack of a better term and quite often the two are'nt the same be it tune or ammo, most often ammo. Anybody want to step up here with an opinion?

ThaiBoxer
12-30-2007, 09:02 PM
Todd, it's clearly time to rebarrel. I've got one I'll sell you, ole buddy.

:)

Don
12-31-2007, 01:35 AM
Mr. Sink, you raise a great point as well. It seems to be increasinly more apparant that with some big indoor matches the last couple years that we have great guns that shoot outdoors with or without some wind and then we have "barn" guns for lack of a better term and quite often the two are'nt the same be it tune or ammo, most often ammo. Anybody want to step up here with an opinion?

Probably the same situation that the centerfire competitors are constantly chasing, commonly referred to as "variations in density altitude". This is probably even more intensified in the differences between "outdoor" and "indoor" competitions....................Don

harrydeneen
12-31-2007, 09:40 AM
FOR RESPONDING.. I HAVE FOUND THAT A GOOD LAPPED BARREL IS REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE WHEN THE LUBE IS ADDED TO THE BORE THEN THERE IS LESS FRICTION ON THE BULLET TO CAUSE DRAG .. A PERFECT ROUND BORE IS A MUST SO THAT THE BULLET DOES NOT GET DISTORTED.. YOU MUST HAVE A ROUND BULLET THAT EXITS THE BARREL....NOT TO GET OFF THE SUBJECT THESE ARE A FEW THINGS THAT ARE NEEDED FOR A RIFLE TO SHOOT IN THE WIND.. ITS ALSO ALOT EASIER TO TUNE THEM WHEN THERE IS LESS FRICTION ON THE BULLET.. I HAVE SHOT MANY EIGHT GROVE BARRELS OVER THE YEARS AND HAVE NEVER FOUND ONE THAT WOULD SHOOT IN WIND OVER TEN MPH.. THEY JUST WONT SHOOT.. IAM SURE MY FRIEND BOB HOLBRUNNER CAN ATTEST TO THIS... I BELIEVE THIS IS BECAUSE THERE IS TO MUCH PROPELLER EFFECT WHEN BULLET EXITS THE BARREL AND A GOOD LAPPED AND TUNED BARREL DONT SEEM TO ERASE ALL THE ERATIC EFFECT THAT THE EIGHT GROOVES HAS ON THE BULLET IN THE WIND....... THERE ARE A BUNCH OF GOOD BARREL MAKERS NOW THAT CAN PRODUCE WINNERS... MOST OF THESE COMPANYS ARE LAPPING THESE BARRELS SOMEWHAT... TODD... I REMEMBER THAT YOU CREEDMORED ME FOR THE FOUR GUN... I KNOW YOU FEEL BAD ABOUT THAT... KEEP YOUR THOUGHS COMMING... ONE MORE THING AS COLUMBO ALWAYS SAID! ANY BARREL MUST HAVE A GOOD LUBE BASE TO BE ALL IT CAN BE.... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: HARRY...

plumbago
12-31-2007, 10:42 AM
Harry: from your last post, if less friction and less drag are so important in the barrel, then why don't more .22 shooters use moly coat or similar products on both the barrel bore and bullets? It seems by your comment on lube, we are back at square one, and you agree with Bill that the important factor is the hint, "wax". Best regards Plum

Patriot
12-31-2007, 10:57 AM
I agree that if the bullet is out of round it will increase drag while in flight and therefore will increase drift. But, the rifling marks themselves start well back of the tip and would very probably be buried in the boundary layer. During WWII a German Engineer decided to put a fairing on the ME109 tail wheel. The original Engineer had it right; the tail wheel was inside the boundary layer so the fairing didn't reduce drag.

Mark

cpeters
12-31-2007, 11:28 AM
Sounds like you are well informed on aerodynamics.

Regarding the bundary layer and the rifling being behind the boundary layer, does this apply to subsonic as well as supersonic? Since in rimfire we try to keep our bullet subsonic, I was just wondering if this still applied?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Charlie

harrydeneen
12-31-2007, 11:42 AM
My Thoughts Are Exactly What Charlie Said.. At Subsonic Speed Wax Is All That Is Needed.. I Do Agree With Bill Calfee .. I Usally Takes About Five Or Six Shots To Lube A Barrel.. Some Call It Fouling.. Less Pressure When A Bullet Exits Is Always Good... If The Bore Is Perfectly Round When It Exits It Will Wobble Less And Go Straight.. Not Like A Bullet That Is Deformed One Way Or Another... I Think That Is Why Alot Of The Two And Four Groove Barrels Are Doing Well.. :):):) Harry..

Patriot
12-31-2007, 12:03 PM
Sounds like you are well informed on aerodynamics.

Regarding the bundary layer and the rifling being behind the boundary layer, does this apply to subsonic as well as supersonic? Since in rimfire we try to keep our bullet subsonic, I was just wondering if this still applied?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Charlie
It applies to subsonic, just like the ME109. It is interesting the 2 and 4 groove shoot better. If the marks are in the flow, they might act like a tabulator and actually keep the flow laminar longer reducing drag. Ever notice the small pieces of metal in the leading edge of a wing or in front of a control surface? I'll do a little research.

Aerodynamics is a hobby so most of my experience came out of books related to airplanes and sailboats, not projectiles. But the same theories should be at work.

Mark

Kent Owens
12-31-2007, 12:06 PM
Harry,
I agree with BC and you on the lube, but I also believe the finish inside the bore has to be such at to retain the lube. What that perfect finish is, I don't know? I do know I lapped a barrel a while back that had a lot of imperfections in it, but still had a dimension that would allow some degree of choke after lapping it. It was a factory barrel, and just an experiment. After lapping it to a 400 grit finish I took the rifle and shot it and shot a 248-15X IR target with it, missed the last 2 shots but that was my fault, I was a in a hurry to finish the target. When I took the rifle back home and cleaned it, it cleaned up easily, just some wet and dry patches and she was clean. I decided to go back over it and polish it some more with 1000 grit. The next test, it shot as well, but in cleaning it took much longer to get the carbon out of it, and took longer to get the patches to come out white.
So, I went back over it again and touched it up with 400 grit again and left it at that. Bear in mind that this wasn't a custom barrel, just a factory barrel with the bore diminsions of .2170-.2220 as it ended up, with just a touch of choke the last 3" at the muzzle, 52D match chamber. It's my squirrel rifle:)
my thoughts are that the proper surface finish (I sure don't know what that is) grabs lube and holds it there and mantains a consistent bore and keeps the bore slick. It'd take a lot of work and experimenting to draw any conclusive results. I just thought I'd mention this one since you mentioned "wax".

Tom C.
12-31-2007, 09:51 PM
the boys in pennsylvania say
hi and bring lots of quarters this year
to fairchance they need em for the
toll road. see ya then.

Joe Friedrich
12-31-2007, 11:16 PM
Harry, i have no clue on how to chamber, lap or any smithing for that matter. Assuming that the barrel that is being used is right from the get go from whomever is building the rifle, then assuming we can eliminate those variables.

I will also assume If there are any imperfections through out the bore, the bullet will not stabilize quick enough and the POI will be more apparent at the target in windy conditions.

I agree with the lube and if the lube will stay consistent over time and with changes in weather. Some of the folks here have been testing cheaper ammo in their CMP rifles trying different lubes with great results, especially in windy conditions. We can't change the lube, but this last batch of Eley that came in, is a good example.

I shot my pistol today in winds gusting to over 30 mph, with the average being 16.4 mph, shooting 3 different lots of Eley with no change in POI. and with awesome results. Apparently the barrel on this pistol is junk according to the previous owner and from the builder. Little do they know how awesome it does shoot in both calm and windy conditions.

Other than that, I have no clue.

Take Care.......Joe

Fred J
01-01-2008, 11:31 AM
Kent confirmed, what several old timers & top barrel makers have told me in the past. You can get a bore too slick. I'll bet that's what BC means, when he says he has to deglaze some of his barrels after the accuracy falls off.

harrydeneen
01-01-2008, 11:57 AM
HAS HIT ON A GOOD POINT THAT I HAVE NOT MENTIONED YET.. THE INSIDE DIMENTIONS.. KENT I LIKE THE DIMENTIONS THAT YOU MENTIONED AND I ALSO KNOW WHAT A COUPLE TOP SMITHS LIKE.. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SE IF THEY WILL COME IN AND GIVE SOME OF ADVICE.. IAM NO GUNSMITH BUT I KNOW WHAT HAS WORKED FOR ME OVER THE YEARS.. SINCE AMMO IS NOT THE PROBLEM . A GUN AND AMMO MATCH WILL NOT BE THAT HARD TO FIND SO OTHER VARIABLES COME INTO PLAY...HERE IS WHAT I WOULD RECOMEND TO A SHOOTER THAT PLANS TO SHOOT IN A GOOD MANY MATCHES AND WANTS TO BE COMPETITIVE AND HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN... I DONT MEAN TO BE HARSH SO PLEASE DONT TAKE IT THAT WAY.. FIRST I WOULD GO AND SHOOT ALL YOUR BR RIFLES IN A WINDY CONDITION.. IF YOU HAVE TWO,THREE ,FOUR. GUNS THEN KEEP THE ONE THAT SHOOTS IN THE WIND AND SELL THE REST OF THEM.. IF YOU HAVE A HUMMER INDOORS AND YOU SHOOT INDOORS ALOT THEN KEEP THAT ONE ALSO.. MOST SHOOTERS SHOOT THERE BEST GUN WHEN THEY GO TO A BIG MATCH ANY WAYS... I KNOW SOME WILL SAY HARRY I CAN PRACTICE WITH MY LESSER GUN AND SAVE MY GOOD ONE! I SAY THIS IS A NO NO... THE HARSH REALITY IS SHOOT YOUR BEST GUN ALL THE TIME IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A CHANCE AT WINNING AND PRACTICE WITH THAT GUN IN THE WIND ALSO AND WHEN YOU GET TO A MATCH YOU WILL HAVE MORE CONFIDENCE AND YOU WILL BE ON YOUR WAY... SELL THE OTHER GUNS AND START BUILDING ANOTHER WITH THAT MONEY.. TRY TO GET ANOTHER WIND GUN BECAUSE IF YOU DONT YOU WILL BE WAISTING YOUR TIME AND MONEY SHOOTING A GUN THAT WONT COMPETE AGAINST SOME OTHERS... EVEN IF YOU ARE A BETTER SHOT THE GUNS THAT SHOOT IN THE WIND WILL PREVAIL... JOE, IAM SURE THAT PISTOL IS AWSOME.. AFTER ALL THE GUY WHO BUILD IS PRETTY GOOD.. YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE THAT HAS TO BE PLEASED WITH IT.... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: HARRY...

Kent Owens
01-03-2008, 06:24 PM
Harry,
I apologize if I related too much to the thread. I'd like to see what some of the smiths could add to the thread too, but don't look like it's going to happen.
On interior dimensions, I personally don't think bore size, within reason is the key. I've seen .215/.220 bored barrels shoot exceptionally well. Some of my best ones are in the region of those dimensions give or take a tenth or two here or there. Iprefer the tighter bores becasue I've had good luck with them.
I think you hit on it with the barrel needing to be round so it doesn't distort the bullet base as it leaves the crown, and too the barrel needs to be such that it keeps a consistent lube base over a long string of shots, and such that it'll take some fouling and keep shooting X's.
Some of 'em shoot like a house on fire for one card, and then need a thorough cleaning to shoot the next card, and some of 'em will shoot all day with just a dry patch between cards and do very well.

garrisone
01-03-2008, 07:09 PM
Harry -Thanks for starting this thread. If everyone would do as you asked we could get some information that would help all of us. The ones that already have effects figured out already know what the deal is. I will watch this thread with a great deal of intrest and I hope I learn something. I am not interested in who I beat or who beats who. I want to go to every match and just try to improve from match to match. garrisone.

harrydeneen
01-04-2008, 10:45 AM
Its All About Trying To Help Each Other.. Garrisone.. Your Outlook Is Great.. Trying To Learn What Can Make Things Better And Sharing What We Know.. Kent .. As Always You Are Willing To Give Some Good Advice From All Of Your Experience.. Bill Myers Is The Only Gunsmith That Has Come In Here And Tried To Help.. He Like Me Does Not Worry About What Some Might Think.. I Aint No Gunsmith But When A Rifle Is Put Together There Are More Than One Right Way To Do Things. There Is Nothing In Concrete On Some Subjects.. On Others There Is.. A Gun That Shoots In The Zeros Is Not No Good If It Dont Shoot In The Wind!!!. I Think Some Shooters Think Its The Ammo That Makes A Gun Shoot In The Wind But That Is Not So.. We Can Add More To That Later If Some Shooters Want To Comment On That.... Happy New Year To All,, :):):) Harry..

Wilbur
01-04-2008, 12:14 PM
The details of a great rifle are many and we continue to muddle within those details trying to determine the cause of the effect. Bill Calfee seems to have that as a life goal and I'm sure others as well. The idea of course is the ability to fabricate a competitive rifle every time. With that idea comes the implication that it ain't happening now. It happens, but not every time. The evidence points to a synergistical relationship of the parts leaving us in a nebula with no way home. The subject is interesting for sure but some of us are old and the days go by......

From the previous sentence "It happens, but not every time", extract the words "It happens". Given a bit of agreement one could further conclude that the rifles we want already exist in some number. Not knowing why these rifles are "better" is not a problem. Not caring why, or caring why to insanity is not a problem. Not owning one of these rifles IS a problem.

Save your time and save your money - go buy one! Not build one - buy one!

If you completely disregard my suggestion as I know you will, please take a separate moment with the following.........

Harry wrote - "... EVEN IF YOU ARE A BETTER SHOT THE GUNS THAT SHOOT IN THE WIND WILL PREVAIL..." (Read this one over and over until you completely understand)

Joe Wrote - "There is no MAGIC, it's either a shooter or it's not...."

cpeters
01-04-2008, 01:36 PM
I do believe some rifles will never be winners because of some underlyng issue or issues. I also believe that there are alot of killer rifles out there that have either just not been tuned right, found the right ammo. Bad bedding, you name it.

I don't remember the story exactly but it seems to me that Dearl Lane bought his killer Time that he used to dominate the ARA nationals from someone as a "non shooter".

Charlie

garrisone
01-04-2008, 01:46 PM
explain why ammo such as Elley does better than others. What I hear a lot of you saying is ALL AMMO IS NOT CREATED EQUAL. I LOVE BENCHREST SHOOTING . I have learned a lot from some of you and my good friend Tom Flowers. There are so many factors to weigh. ammo -the -gun the wind etc. Then through in the price of a custom made gun it gets bewildering sometimes.I think I have a rifle that will shoot the wind at least that is what I learned from letting my friend Tom flowers help me set it up. He shoots my rifle far better than I can-this is another factor-the ability of the shooter to shoot and know his rifle.The club where I shoot is a young club and I had a opertunity to speak with the president of the club about a number of things involved with benchrest shooting. One of his remarks was he didn't want to see the club get into a money race to see who could buy the most exspensive gun. I don't see how it can't help but go the way of who can buy the top of the ladder equipment. I shoot indoors and I have seen that my rifle will shoot the wind out doors. Indoor and outdoor shooting is very different. In doors you don't worry so much about the effect of the wind but some times I wonder. I am trying to learn as much as I can. I don't compete with every shooter I compete with myself.When it gets to be no fun any more I will get out of it. I am looking foward to reading more you guys have to say about this subject.garrisone.

harrydeneen
01-04-2008, 03:08 PM
I Think You Have Been Eating At To Many Chinese Places.. We Are Just Common Folk Here So Try To Use English That We Can Understand.. But You Are Right, And I Know That Comes From Your Experience Over The Years Shooting Guns That Would Not Compete In Windy Conditions.. But One Thing You Are Forgeting. Very Few Killer Guns Are For Sale! Even At Big Prices .. And I Have Found That Most Shooters Would Rather Build Than Pay A Big Price.. When Its All Said And Done You Will Still Pay A Big Price To Build One And It Might Not Shoot.. People Think Why Is It For Sell! It Must Not Shoot That Well.. Just Common Nature... There Are Some Killer Guns Out There But Not To Sound Mean Or Nothing Most Cant Shoot Them Well Enough To Win With Them In Real Bad Conditions.. Wiil Explain More Later.. Thanks For The Comments And Lets Try To Learn More ... I Know That I Can Learn Alot From You Guys.. :):):) Harry..

pacecil
01-04-2008, 03:34 PM
When and who and how was the test conducted that PROVED that wind can have a different effect on bullets of same shape traveling at same velocity but from different barrels?

glynn angle
01-04-2008, 03:45 PM
It's as plain as rat turds in a sugar bowl. Glynn

Joe Friedrich
01-04-2008, 04:16 PM
I too like the opinions that have been shared, Wilbur i understand, agree and will agree there are variables. I believe the Smiths have the best opportunity to work with the barrel manufactures to produce what they feel is that Holy Grail of a barrel, they are the ones I have to rely and trust. Good example BC with Lilja, Bill Meyers with BM. Do smiths agree with each other, don't know but does it make one way right and the other wrong. We have heard or even witnessed a rifle that's a killer, the characteristics of that particular barrel are not close to what we or smiths would agree with is the correct profile, but it just is for whatever reasons. There are no 2 barrels alike, and each rifle has it's own personality.

Then there are rifles like Charlie mentioned, a few that are not right from the start for whatever reason and others that have not been brought to their full potential and Folks give up on them.

If you are lucky enough to own one, treat it good.

Take Care.....Joe

Wilbur
01-04-2008, 05:25 PM
When and who and how was the test conducted that PROVED that wind can have a different effect on bullets of same shape traveling at same velocity but from different barrels?

Never, Not & Nobody! If fired from different barrels/rifles, something ain't the same. That's the whole point.

We have fired rifles side by side at mostly the same instant and observed greater wind drift in both directions from one as opposed to the other - both rimfire and centerfire. We know the "phenomena" exists and would like to figure it out so that it's no longer a phenomena.

JLG.
01-04-2008, 08:17 PM
A question for Harry what do you think is more important a killer barrel or a good true action that a smith dont have to mess with??? I have my opinion I would like yours and know why you think that.Jerry

Carp
01-04-2008, 10:15 PM
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2036
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacecil
When and who and how was the test conducted that PROVED that wind can have a different effect on bullets of same shape traveling at same velocity but from different barrels?
Never, Not & Nobody! If fired from different barrels/rifles, something ain't the same. That's the whole point.

We have fired rifles side by side at mostly the same instant and observed greater wind drift in both directions from one as opposed to the other - both rimfire and centerfire. We know the "phenomena" exists and would like to figure it out so that it's no longer a phenomena.

Wilbur, you've raised your temperature to a boil. Let it rest (that is a cooking term LOL). The phenomena may be other variables like ammo and the shooter. I've seen some of my impacts be completely opposite of logical. If you get a left to right wind then the impact should be low and right and if you get a right to left wind then the impact should be high and left. Have you ever had a low and left impact or a high and right impact? Have you ever drilled 5 or more 100's (ARA) with a slight condition that is steady and then had a strange impact? Have you ever had to "back-door" on a hold-off? Have you ever just held center in a condition that told you not too and drilled 100's? It's more than is conceivable to shoot a 2500 ARA target. There have been, I assume 10's of thousands, in very good and predictable conditions, with very capable guns with killer barrels. But until this year, not any single gun, or single shooter had ever shot two.....not even in a row.....under identical conditions. The phenomena is something that a shooter that will shoot a 2500 takes and uses, but it is fleeting, because the very next card he shoots and tries it again....it's a solid 50. There are simply too many variables to explain why so many truly killer rifles don't shoot 2450's all the time in good conditions and........still wonder about that single shot. That phenomena works more than that, it works, well....just more than that. But pacecil brings a good point...................why is it different? Don't be mad at him for a VERY good question that many folks can't explain.

Carp

Wilbur
01-04-2008, 11:49 PM
I think you may have misunderstood or I wrote something wrong. No big deal either way and I'm not mad at Paecil.

BTW - the side by side simultaneous firing takes the shooter out of the equation. About the only variable left is how the scope is zeroed and if it blows farther both ways that's gone.

Patriot
01-05-2008, 09:47 AM
It applies to subsonic, just like the ME109. It is interesting the 2 and 4 groove shoot better. If the marks are in the flow, they might act like a tabulator and actually keep the flow laminar longer reducing drag. Ever notice the small pieces of metal in the leading edge of a wing or in front of a control surface? I'll do a little research.
Mark

Most of the discussions have been around what factors with the rifle or ammo we can control to reduce wind drift, which makes sense. But, understanding what happens once the bullet leaves the barrel may help explain why those factors matter or don't. Interesting reading:

http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm#Figures

Since pistol bullets are subsonic their information may be more applicable than HP bullets. It appears that the flow is staying laminar most of the way down a standard shape bullet. But, the driving band on a target 22 has to be causing a huge shock wave. In fact, the bullet is designed more like a wad cutter.

Bill, did Eley use any shadow graphs when you were testing bullets?

http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/photofile-b/shadowgraph-bullet-1.jpg

It would be very interesting to see the Eley shape vs. a Wolf/SK/et all. Several have said the Eley was wind sensitive 2? years ago. Was that because the wax was non-uniform or was the shape of the bullet causing excessive drag?

If the rifling marks in the driving band are not buried in the boundary layer that might explain the 2-4 groove observation. Are 2-4 groove marks deeper than the 6+?

If all the factors we control in the end only reduce or increase drag, then if we can measure velocity differences accurately enough between the muzzle and 50 or 100 yards and if the drag variance is not lost in the usual variance in ammo speed, we might be able to measure the accuracy of a rifle for a given ammo and tuning setting.

Dang, this is getting interesting.

Mark

pacecil
01-06-2008, 04:01 PM
This IS interesting. But so far that's all it is - interesting. Until someone can put some numbers with their observations, then it just a bunch of "thoughts". The statement that shooters side by side saw some different wind effect probably is true. But how much effect did they see? And what was the wind velocity while this took place? And was there any difference in bullet velocity, or yawing? YOU MUST PUT NUMBERS ON THESE THINGS AND PROBABLY A LOT OF OTHER THINGS BEFORE IT HAS ANY MEANING.

It's well known what factors affect a bullet's response to the wind and once you determine how these factors vary in the bullets flight then you can predict how it will react to the wind. Once you know how a bullet flies from a particular barrel you can predict how that bullet will be affected by the wind. If you run through calculations for this I think you will find there should be very little difference in wind effect on bullets out of good rimfire barrels. In other words; this is not an effect that is going to be easy to detect, much less measure. It's pretty much like the "tuner effect"; very small, very hard to measure, and to a large degree mostly in the shooter's mind.

Kent Owens
01-06-2008, 04:07 PM
Pacecil,
Do you own or have you ever owned, or shot, a top flite rimfire BR rifle in competition? I gotta wonder from some of the stuff you post. I think the intent of this thread was for shooters to post and their experiences. If you could do that, we might learn something. Anyway, it's a nice thought.

tim
01-06-2008, 04:20 PM
This IS interesting. But so far that's all it is - interesting. Until someone can put some numbers with their observations, then it just a bunch of "thoughts". The statement that shooters side by side saw some different wind effect probably is true. But how much effect did they see? And what was the wind velocity while this took place? And was there any difference in bullet velocity, or yawing? YOU MUST PUT NUMBERS ON THESE THINGS AND PROBABLY A LOT OF OTHER THINGS BEFORE IT HAS ANY MEANING.

It's well known what factors affect a bullet's response to the wind and once you determine how these factors vary in the bullets flight then you can predict how it will react to the wind. Once you know how a bullet flies from a particular barrel you can predict how that bullet will be affected by the wind. If you run through calculations for this I think you will find there should be very little difference in wind effect on bullets out of good rimfire barrels. In other words; this is not an effect that is going to be easy to detect, much less measure. It's pretty much like the "tuner effect"; very small, very hard to measure, and to a large degree mostly in the shooter's mind.

Hey Harry, get this guy's phone number, he might show you on the calculator how to shoot better in the wind.:D:D

Patriot
01-06-2008, 05:22 PM
This IS interesting. But so far that's all it is - interesting. Until someone can put some numbers with their observations, then it just a bunch of "thoughts". The statement that shooters side by side saw some different wind effect probably is true. But how much effect did they see? And what was the wind velocity while this took place? And was there any difference in bullet velocity, or yawing? YOU MUST PUT NUMBERS ON THESE THINGS AND PROBABLY A LOT OF OTHER THINGS BEFORE IT HAS ANY MEANING.

It's well known what factors affect a bullet's response to the wind and once you determine how these factors vary in the bullets flight then you can predict how it will react to the wind. Once you know how a bullet flies from a particular barrel you can predict how that bullet will be affected by the wind. If you run through calculations for this I think you will find there should be very little difference in wind effect on bullets out of good rimfire barrels. In other words; this is not an effect that is going to be easy to detect, much less measure. It's pretty much like the "tuner effect"; very small, very hard to measure, and to a large degree mostly in the shooter's mind.

I'm in the process or working out how I might use two chronographs to do just that. If someone has already gone down this path and it is not measurable, please stop me. Any input is welcome. Here are my thoughts:
1) Compare two chronographs measuring any differences in their calibration.
2) Run the test at 100 yards to increase the variation
3) Run identical test cases using different rifles, ammo, tuners, wax, etc. for windy and calm conditions
4) Perform a statistical evaluation of the numbers to see what factors caused the greatest velocity loss (increased drag)
5) Compare the velocity loss to observed wind drift results, taking the 12/6 and 3/9 o'clock wind vector components into account.

Does anyone know how much chronograph accuracy is improved by extending the boom length?

Pacecil,
Thoughts?

Sincerely,
Mark

harrydeneen
01-06-2008, 06:35 PM
You Know That One.. My Opinion Is That The Action Is Not Very Important At All.. As Long As You Have Good Ignition And The Headspace Is Close .. The Barrel Is The Driving Force When It Comes To Wind Deflection... As Wilbur Stated You Can Have Two Rifles Side By Side And One Will Be More Wind Sensitive Than The Other.. When You Have A Good Shooting Rifle That The Wind Does Not Effect As Much Then You Will Have A Gun That Is More Forgiving.. What I Mean By This Is That You Can Get Away With More Mistakes With Less Drift.. Or With A Barrel That Is Not As Forgiving You Will Be Worn Out After Shooting A Target If You Can Keep Your Consentration... A Round Bullet Will Shoot Better Than A Distorted One!! Its Like Glynn Said... :):):) Harry..

Bill Myers
01-06-2008, 07:18 PM
Haven't paid much attention to the Forum for awhile, but have enjoyed this thread from start to finish. This is the kind of good stuff we used to see more often. Keep asking the good questions Harry, please. More people will join in when they see they aren't going to be criticized for offering an opinion or idea that differs from yours.

Since we're talking about "windy" shooting, I'm going to digress a tiny bit and give a short list of some of the best wind shooters I've ever personally watched succeed in extreme switchy or blasting wind: you (of course), Bob Holbruner, Steve Arnold, Bill Myers, Fred Sears, Herb Smith, Marshall Beam, Wiley and Janet Westfall, Bill Sink, Wilton Burnett and Kirk Gaston. There are many others I've probably missed or haven't had the privilege to observe, but these people stick in my mind because of two things. They all had/have an ability to focus on the conditions and an intensity of attention while shooting that makes them consistent winners when everyone else is flopping around making excuses, including myself. They own and shoot guns made by every good gunsmith, with every good action and barrel. They've shot great scores with every type of decent ammunition. They have done their homework. They have tested hundreds/thousands of lots of ammo and practiced in every miserable condition that exists. They have competed on many ranges.

I am convinced that the gun that shoots the best in the wind is probably the one owned by a person who has spent the most time practicing and doing it. Keep looking for a technical edge, but don't think it's going to ever substitute for the time you spend watching the flags and pulling the trigger.

Now for the blasphemy -- I can't understand the interest in indoor shooting. If there is no condition to read, then what's the point? And if a gun is accurate indoors, but won't do diddly in a breeze, then it seems to me it's usefulness is extremely limited and you might get suckered in and try to use it outdoors anyway and fall on your face.

Just my opinion and I know there are lots of indoor shooters who seem to enjoy it, but I'm thinking I'd rather feel the wind on the back of my neck any day than be indoors, wondering if "chicken ghosts" just took my shot two rings out.

Bill is going to kill me when he sees this, but I just felt the urge! Happy New Year to everyone!

Inez

GordonE
01-06-2008, 08:16 PM
Inez
"YOU GO GIRL" If Bill says much. Don't bother cooking his supper for a couple days.:D

Carp
01-06-2008, 09:49 PM
Have you ever thought about the guns that shoot in the wind but do not shoot in the calm (indoors or night matches)? I have seen it and it still surprises me but it is fact. Is it the shooter or the gun? I can tell you this....I think it is more in the mind of the shooter and not the gun but the shooters I'm thinking of might argue. I hope they respond.


Carp

burtona
01-06-2008, 10:12 PM
Now for the blasphemy -- I can't understand the interest in indoor shooting. If there is no condition to read, then what's the point? And if a gun is accurate indoors, but won't do diddly in a breeze, then it seems to me it's usefulness is extremely limited and you might get suckered in and try to use it outdoors anyway and fall on your face.

Just my opinion and I know there are lots of indoor shooters who seem to enjoy it, but I'm thinking I'd rather feel the wind on the back of my neck any day than be indoors, wondering if "chicken ghosts" just took my shot two rings out.

Bill is going to kill me when he sees this, but I just felt the urge! Happy New Year to everyone!

Inez

I'm with you on this Inez. I do not like shooting in the indoor ranges. My rifles don't seem to like it either. I do like the the bull sessions, something to occupy a winter week end, and the good food however.
Dave

Joe Friedrich
01-06-2008, 11:31 PM
Harry I believe the barrel is a given with other factors playing their part. You see the problem I'm having is You and other Folks here on this forum already know this, and I'm not being sarcastic with that statement. I'm concerned about the new shooter who just bought a new or used rifle and getting into the game and don't know.

Their is yourself and others here reading these replies that just (bottom line) know. If i was to send you a rifle, you in a short amount of time would tell me if that rifle was a shooter or not. (I'm not referring to indoors).

Then their are folks that don't know, and have not experienced the different conditions at other ranges. Wind is wind, but the characteristics that make up a particular range and other factors thrown in make it the challenge. There is no denying that you and others KNOW. and agree with the statement Inez posted about folks that can shoot outdoors.

Harry, i apologize for these questions being off topic, but would like to hear your experience to help someone new if they want it and myself. What do you look for when you are competing at different ranges with a lot of wind?, and or switchy conditions.

Thanks,
Joe

JLG.
01-07-2008, 06:26 AM
You Know That One.. My Opinion Is That The Action Is Not Very Important At All.. As Long As You Have Good Ignition And The Headspace Is Close .. The Barrel Is The Driving Force When It Comes To Wind Deflection... As Wilbur Stated You Can Have Two Rifles Side By Side And One Will Be More Wind Sensitive Than The Other.. When You Have A Good Shooting Rifle That The Wind Does Not Effect As Much Then You Will Have A Gun That Is More Forgiving.. What I Mean By This Is That You Can Get Away With More Mistakes With Less Drift.. Or With A Barrel That Is Not As Forgiving You Will Be Worn Out After Shooting A Target If You Can Keep Your Consentration... A Round Bullet Will Shoot Better Than A Distorted One!! Its Like Glynn Said... :):):) Harry..

I agree somewhat. I feel in this game we all love, the action is 90% of it and the barrel is the other 90% Oh I forgot about the ammo there is another 90% and reading the wind 90% ammo 90% and the 10% is luck.But even if you have all this right if the gun isnt in tune and I mean the real tuned your just spitting into the wind.The people thats still turning the tuner during the match has never had there gun tuned right or they wouldnt be messing with it then.Harry I know the answer already because we have talked about this before. But how often do you turn your tuner???? Listen up people if Harry offers to answer this question take heed to it because its the simple truth. Jerry

pacecil
01-07-2008, 12:58 PM
Okay, Tim and some others have got it out of their system. I probably don't have no guns and I'm just a wimp that don't shoot in tough man competition like Kent. I'm just a nerd sitting here with a calculator figuring things out that everyone knows can only be done sitting at a bench with a gun that costs at least as much as my automobile.

Patroit, Sure, you're on the right track by trying so set up and learn something by measuring things. This is the only way we are going to learn anything. You would without doubt get something we haven't had up to this point - SOME NUMBERS! However, if you come up with concepts that differ from ideas of some of the people posting here you might consider keeping the results to yourself.

Carp, You present some correct and valid points about interpretations sometimes made by shooters. Unfortunately they are just the things that some shooters posting here don't like to have pointed out to them.

I'll just ask a couple of questions, maybe directed at Harry or Wilbur.
1) Can you tell us; HOW MANY INCHES DIFFERENCE was there in some of the "differences" in wind effect that you noted?
2) When two different shooters sit side by side, how does this "eliminate the shooter from the equation"?

harrydeneen
01-07-2008, 01:41 PM
You Are Right When You Say Al Things Are Important But When I Answered Your Question About Barrel ,or Action I Was Just Refering To Them Two... You Can Put A Great Barrel On About Any Br Action And Set It Up Right And It Will Be Good... But You Cant Put A So So Barrel On Any Br Action And Win...joe.. I Only Post On Here To Help Shooters If I Can... And Newer Shooters Most Of All So They Can Save Money And Not Make As Many Mistakes As I Did In The Learning Process.. But Most Of The Sucess They Have Will Still Come From Trial And Error And We All Have To Go Through That.. Inez Is Right When She Says You Have To Practice Alot.. Dont Worry About Bill Inez.. I Know You Can Still Take Him!.. Jerry .. Remember That Old Factory 40x You Had? Man That Would Shoot In The Wind.. I Remember In Cordelle When You Seen That Big Watermelon Was Going To The Winner And Your Eyes Got Real Big I Knew I Was In Trouble!! Thats When I Knew You Was A Bigger Redneck Than Me...:d... Harry...

DonMatzeder
01-07-2008, 01:52 PM
pacecil, the fact that some of these rednecks don't cypher much don't mean that they are ignorant. They have thought out all the controlable aspects of this game and then experimented with the rest. Knowing the amount of difference won't change the fact that there is a differnce. As for that difference, this last summer when my gun would not shoot and Darrel's would, we played with zero in a switching wind one afternoon until we were sure we had exactly the same zero. We sat on the same bench and shot at adjacent bulls on the same target, I follow him on one shot and he follow me on the next shot. Pull the trigger when you hear the bang. Each aimed at the dot. His bullet moved about an 1/8th in a 10mph wind. Mine moved almost a half.

Fred K
01-07-2008, 02:17 PM
DonMatzeder
How about the ammo, same mfg, same lot ??
Thanks
Fred K

DonMatzeder
01-07-2008, 02:43 PM
Yep, same box and a lot that both guns shot as well as the guns shot.

Bill Myers
01-07-2008, 02:57 PM
Pacecil,I have been reading some of your post for a while & if i was a new shooter that was trying to gain knowledge & wisdom ,I would have say that you do not offer any real knowledge that a shooter can use to help him or her in their quest to become a good Rimfire Benchrest shooter,I think that you are a Keyboard shooter & this is ok,but whenever some one posts on here with advise on a subject,One should look at the posters track record & see what they have accomplished in the rimfire arena,World Records,Hall of Fame points & such,If there are none,Then bypass this persons comments,because they are just blowing smoke,some of the shooters on this site are very smart & do not pay much attention to un provened claims.I think that you try & analize everything,& thats good,But you need to get out in the trenches & get dirty,Then you will see that all the thinking in the world will not bail your ass out when the wind gets up & a littleLady Like Linda Rogers set down beside you & cleans your clock& gets up Smiling.I will tell you this & Rimfire Barrels have special wind that they favor & it can change in a hours time,What was working this morning will not work this afternoon,I watched Marshall Beam shoot a 250 target In Cordeale Georgia In a 30 mile wind,He used 5 different lots of Eley Ammo to get through that target,He changed as things went away,But in the End,he won the Class,Why ,Because he shot smart,not stupid.I am sure that you will continue to post on this Forum & thats good,But do not get all thin skinned if no one takes your advise,You need to shoot,not type. BILL

JLG.
01-07-2008, 07:05 PM
You Are Right When You Say Al Things Are Important But When I Answered Your Question About Barrel ,or Action I Was Just Refering To Them Two... You Can Put A Great Barrel On About Any Br Action And Set It Up Right And It Will Be Good... But You Cant Put A So So Barrel On Any Br Action And Win...joe.. I Only Post On Here To Help Shooters If I Can... And Newer Shooters Most Of All So They Can Save Money And Not Make As Many Mistakes As I Did In The Learning Process.. But Most Of The Sucess They Have Will Still Come From Trial And Error And We All Have To Go Through That.. Inez Is Right When She Says You Have To Practice Alot.. Dont Worry About Bill Inez.. I Know You Can Still Take Him!.. Jerry .. Remember That Old Factory 40x You Had? Man That Would Shoot In The Wind.. I Remember In Cordelle When You Seen That Big Watermelon Was Going To The Winner And Your Eyes Got Real Big I Knew I Was In Trouble!! Thats When I Knew You Was A Bigger Redneck Than Me...:d... Harry...

Yeah Harry I remember do you reckon that maybe the old lapua shot better in the wind versus the new eley?? I know the new eley doesnt have the flippers like the old lapua.And we wont go into the redneck stuff we both know who keeps animals in their basement;)

brad541thb
01-07-2008, 07:28 PM
I have been sticking to this thread like glue. :D

Harry, you still the man! ;)

I don't know much, but I'm willing to learn like the rest of us here. I think we need more threads like this one.

This has been one of the best.

Brad

harrydeneen
01-07-2008, 09:43 PM
You Know That Iam A Lapua Man But I Shot Eley Down In Sc When I Won Both Events That Weekend And It Does Shoot Good In The Wind When Things Are Right.. You Know What I Am Talking About When I Say That Factory Barrel You Had On That Gun Shot As Good As In The Wind As Any I Have Seen... I Know It Had To Be The Gun :d:d:d.. Brad Hope We Can Learn Something Together! ... Indoor Shooting Is Fun And Gives Us Shooters Farther North Something To Do In The Winter.. Like Dave Said We Can Shoot The Bull Real Good... Don.. I See You Know What Iam Saying About The Diffrence In Drift.. Boy Its Hard To Shoot One That Drifts Alot Farther Than Normal... As I Have Mentioned Earlier When A Barrel Is Lapped And Tapered Right And Tuned To Perfection They Will Shoot Through The Wind Well.... Jerry.. You Know After I Tune My Rifle I Tape It And Leave It Alone.. When You Find That Dead Spot Then It Will Shoot All Your Good Ammo.. This Is What I Have Done Over The Years On All My Guns And Many Lots Of Ammo.... I Did Not Want To Open This Can Of Worms Because Alot Of Shooters Have Diffrent Opinions... And They Might Be Right.... When I Got Dj To Tape His Turbo When It Was Tuned It Was Hard To Beat For Along While Untill The Barrel Started Giving Out... Any Comments Dj? :):):) Harry....

pacecil
01-07-2008, 10:19 PM
To DonMatzeder, On that day you indicated wind was affecting your gun, roughly what size groups was it/you shooting? What size was the other gun shooting? How many groups or shots did you shoot? Anything there to cause much velocity difference between the guns? Did you say your gun shot tight groups with that ammo except on that day?

DonMatzeder
01-07-2008, 11:32 PM
Both guns would shoot good groups. If I were perfect, I could win with that gun. I'm not. A little mistake with a gun moving an 1/8th is still a 100. A little mistake with a gun moving 1/2 inch is easily a 50 and could be a 25. Darrel's gun would shooter tighter than mine but that wasn't what we were watching that day.

JLG.
01-08-2008, 06:45 AM
Jerry.. You Know After I Tune My Rifle I Tape It And Leave It Alone.. When You Find That Dead Spot Then It Will Shoot All Your Good Ammo.. This Is What I Have Done Over The Years On All My Guns And Many Lots Of Ammo.... I Did Not Want To Open This Can Of Worms Because Alot Of Shooters Have Diffrent Opinions... And They Might Be Right.... When I Got Dj To Tape His Turbo When It Was Tuned It Was Hard To Beat For Along While Untill The Barrel Started Giving Out... Any Comments Dj? :):):) Harry....

Harry this was my point if all guns was tuned right and left alone we would see alot more higher scores and different winners.How can someone that has never shot there gun when it was tuned be able to figure out if it was the wind or the gun??? That would be like practicing(sp?) with wolf you wouldnt know if it was you or the ammo.I would venture to say 85% of the guns out there are good guns they just need tuned or just need good ammo.But then again what do I know Im just a dumb'ol Redneck:o Jerry
Ps. this is a killer thread!!

dj78nc
01-08-2008, 09:27 AM
I can agree with you on the tuning. Get it right tape it and leave it. Not only will it shoot better in the wind but it will shoot in the calm then too. Oh Harry by the way my turbo may be better now then it ever was!! DJ

harrydeneen
01-08-2008, 09:30 AM
What You Are Saying Jerry So That Is One Of The Reasons That We Have To Help Them Get Started.. Iam Sure Some Shooter Around Where They Shoot Will Try To Help.. At Least This Is What I Have Found Out Over The Years... After A Shooter Gets A Gun Together I Know Someone From Around Them Will Help Them And Shoot The Gun And Give Their Opinion... But Alot Will Count On The Shooters Will And Hard Work.... :):):) Harry...

cpeters
01-08-2008, 02:03 PM
Harry this was my point if all guns was tuned right and left alone we would see alot more higher scores and different winners.How can someone that has never shot there gun when it was tuned be able to figure out if it was the wind or the gun??? That would be like practicing(sp?) with wolf you wouldnt know if it was you or the ammo.I would venture to say 85% of the guns out there are good guns they just need tuned or just need good ammo.But then again what do I know Im just a dumb'ol Redneck:o Jerry
Ps. this is a killer thread!!


I don't claim to be any kind of expert in this crowd, but I have found 2 things.

1. My main rifle seems to shoot Lapua at about 265 and Eley EPS at 250.
2. During a match, any time I ever changed the tuner, it was because I was grasping at an answer, I have always wound shooting a couple sighters and putting it right back where it was.

I too believe there are alot of rifles not shooting to thier potential for alot of reasons....tuning only being one.

I would be interested to hear what Harry and you Jerry have to say about tuning.

Most are not confident in themselves to be able to shoot and know if it was the wind, rifle tuning, or thier inability to judge conditions that made the shot go away from the rest.

What are your thoughts on a tuner setting that will make the rifle shoot one little hole yet another that is optimal for less movement in the wind. Do the two go hand in hand?

I personally am a believer that since you want that bullet to settle down just as soon as it leaves the muzzle that you should not overlook what is happening at short ranges.

Some will ask, so you mean to tell me that a bullet can be off at say 20 yards and somehow get back on course at 50 to shoot a good group? I say no, but everything I have been able to find in ballistics refers to a bullet leaving the muzzle traveling in a "helix" around the trajectory path that is wide as it leaves the muzzle and continuing to settle into the path of trajectory down range. I would expect this is what we call the bullet settling down.

Should we be working to tune this more towards the bench end of the range AND the target end? Do the two necessarily go hand in hand?

I'm interested in your thoughts on this and specifically if you were handed a new rifle that had never been tuned, and a dozen lots of ammo. What steps specifically would you take to have confidence you had wringed the first and last bit of accuracy with the combination you chose?

Thanks in advance.

Charlie Peters

harrydeneen
01-08-2008, 04:06 PM
I Have Wrote Alot On This Subject On Earlier Post Ect.. If You Can Not Find Any Thing Then We Can Touch On It Later.. I Will Say Briefly That It Dont Matter How Much You Tune A Barrel If The Barrel Aint No Good.. You Can Tell This Pretty Fast When Youn First Start To Shoot It.. You Will Still Have To Tune It The Best You Can But This Wont Make It Shoot In The Wind!! It Will Only Help To A Certain Degree If The Barrel Aint That Good... Dj.. New Barrel Or Old? You Have To Watch Out For Them Old Farts Like Craig! They Will Try To Whoop You And Then Braig About It... Charlie.. I Think There Was A Real Long Post On Tunning A Rifle A While Back.. If I Recall You Ask Be About It And That Got The Post Started.. I Could Be Wrong Though... :):):) Harry...

JLG.
01-08-2008, 04:21 PM
I don't claim to be any kind of expert in this crowd, but I have found 2 things.

1. My main rifle seems to shoot Lapua at about 265 and Eley EPS at 250.
2. During a match, any time I ever changed the tuner, it was because I was grasping at an answer, I have always wound shooting a couple sighters and putting it right back where it was.

I too believe there are alot of rifles not shooting to thier potential for alot of reasons....tuning only being one.

I would be interested to hear what Harry and you Jerry have to say about tuning.

Most are not confident in themselves to be able to shoot and know if it was the wind, rifle tuning, or thier inability to judge conditions that made the shot go away from the rest.

What are your thoughts on a tuner setting that will make the rifle shoot one little hole yet another that is optimal for less movement in the wind. Do the two go hand in hand?

I personally am a believer that since you want that bullet to settle down just as soon as it leaves the muzzle that you should not overlook what is happening at short ranges.

Some will ask, so you mean to tell me that a bullet can be off at say 20 yards and somehow get back on course at 50 to shoot a good group? I say no, but everything I have been able to find in ballistics refers to a bullet leaving the muzzle traveling in a "helix" around the trajectory path that is wide as it leaves the muzzle and continuing to settle into the path of trajectory down range. I would expect this is what we call the bullet settling down.

Should we be working to tune this more towards the bench end of the range AND the target end? Do the two necessarily go hand in hand?

I'm interested in your thoughts on this and specifically if you were handed a new rifle that had never been tuned, and a dozen lots of ammo. What steps specifically would you take to have confidence you had wringed the first and last bit of accuracy with the combination you chose?

Thanks in advance.

Charlie Peters

Charlie how are you doing? I may not be the best to answer this because I have a person that tunes all my guns and he is darn good at it.The guns that I have tuned I start with a proven lot of ammo and shoot 3 shot groups without the tuner on it.Im looking for small round groups with a single hole that looks like it was shot with a pellet gun. I change the torque of the action screws until I cant get my groups any smaller.I like for the gun to be able to shoot 2000+ targets.Then I preceed with the muzzle tuner and get all I can get from there.If things isnt looking good I would go with a mid barrel tuner.I have had good ammo that I could see in my scope that would corkscrew from the 11'0clock portion of my scope then fall dead center of the target all this seems to happen just feet in front of the target.But all the great ammo I have had you wouldnt see this. lapua midas-L 4017 multimatch 3050p or eley black 1006-4112 you wouldnt see the bullet just a nice little black hole and it seemed less wind sensitive.In 2002 or 2003 work was slow for me and I couldnt buy a case of ammo all at once I would buy a brick or two at a time that was my best year shooting I shot 14 different lot numbers of lapua that year with the tuner staying set at 210 never had to move it. Here is a question for Hoke you wrote a artical for PS magazine on magical 185 setting was that 185 clicks from zero or 185 on the tuner.The reason I ask is my gun was 185 clicks from zero and it read 210 I know of several other guns that shot on 210 or real close to it. Charlie Im sorry for the long post I hope I answered your question.Jerry

JLG.
01-08-2008, 04:28 PM
Harry you are right some barrels are like 7-up never had it never will!! But you will be able to tell real fast.Jerry

Carp
01-08-2008, 07:24 PM
Jerry and Harry and all those interested,
I have seen the corksrewing effect on a bullet from my Rem. 541-T HBL. I was shooting a 16X scope at the time and could not shoot free recoil so it was easier to see. Now I shoot a custom gun with a 36X scope free recoil and no longer see the radial trajectory that I once saw. I can't say that my current gun is in "extreme" tune but it shoots well. I have a question for the two of you, since it seems that some guns will have less wind drift than others (i.e. .128" vs. .500" drift sitting side-by-side), would it be possible that the gun that shot .128" to be less predictable that the gun shooting .500" in the wind for score? I don't trust myself in the wind and usually am reminded by my gun that I made the mistake. My gun's tune (interestlingly is 186 for Hoke's concern) I've never changed it since I bought it used already tuned. I know I'm crazy for that since I may find it to be better at a different setting but shooting more ammo is expensive when I struggle financially to shoot as much as I do. I just wonder about the predictability of certain guns and will tell those that have never seen it the radial trajectory is a real thing. Anyone wishing to see it should shoot my Rem. 541 T-HBL. I hope I helped some and questioned the rest to get those cogs going to help others (including myself).

Carp

Fred J
01-08-2008, 11:32 PM
I often see this spiraling effect when shooting free recoil. As my rifles are set up the track straight back and never leave the target. Some times the light isn't quite right, and I miss it. It's even more pronounced at 100 yards. You would swear, the bullet missed the POI by a mile. Maybe it's just an optical illusion.

harrydeneen
01-09-2008, 10:24 AM
If The Gun That Shoots .500 Shoots Better In The Wind Then It Will Be More Predictable Than The Other... I Have Had Guns That Would Be Better In No Wind But Would Not Be A Winner In Bad Conditions.. If You Are Going To Shoot For Score In Matches Which Are Moslty In Breezy Conditions Then Shoot The Gun That Is Less Wind Sensitive... Charlie.. I Tune My Guns Indoors At Closer Ranges With A Controlled Temp.. This Way When You Have Any Bad Shots You Will Know If Its Tuner Or Ammo.. If You Are Testing Ammo Then You Can Look For Any Bad Shots..... I Have Found That If Bedding Is Correct Then When You Tighten Screw It Should Bottom Fast...so It Dont Matter If Your Action Is At 10-50 Inch Lbs It Wont Change Poi... If It Does Bedding Is Nor Correct... I Keep Mine On 30-35 Inch Lbs.. Check It A Week Or So Later Then It Should Be The Exact Same.. If Not Then Its Moving In Your Action... I Have A Indicator That Darrel Horsley Made Me.. So When I Check My Bedding I Can Tighten It From Ten To Fifty Inch Lbs And I Dont Want No More Than A 1000th Movement.... You Can Se Your Bullet Alot Of Time .. Like Fred Said It Depends On Lighting... :):):) Harry....

dj78nc
01-09-2008, 11:52 AM
Its the same one!

cpeters
01-09-2008, 11:53 AM
Harry,

Yes I knew your response from a previous thread....was mainly hoping to get your thoughts to some of the new folks following your very informative thread, I think that helps fill in some of the blanks here.

It is a nice change of pace to see how positive and serious this thread has stayed unlike some of the informative threads of recent. I think it shows the respect on this forum for the individuals that have donated useful information.

Charlie

Fred K
01-09-2008, 01:55 PM
How about some comments on tuning procedures !
Fred K

BigMacky
01-09-2008, 03:24 PM
I remembered a thread back in April where Harry went into tuning in great detail.

Here's a link to that thread ....

http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42008

Figured we'd save Harry from Carpal Tunnel Syndrome .... :)

harrydeneen
01-10-2008, 09:40 AM
I Knew It Was There Somewhere... With All The Good Barrel Makers And Good Ammo Around We Should Not Have Much Trouble Getting A Good Barel.... You Might Have To Go Through A Few But With The Price Of Ammo Sometimes This Is Better... You Can Waste A Few Bricks Of Ammo Real Quick Through A Barrel That Aint So Good.. And When A Gunsmith Puts One For You He Really Dont Know How Exactly Its Going To Turn Out... If Every Thing Comes Together Good Then You Are Set... But All The Little Things Have Got To Be Right... All Of Them... Boythis Br Shooting Is Tough Sometimes! Its A Little Like Nascar Because You Dont Really Know Whats Going To Happen That Day... :):):) Harry..

Fred K
01-10-2008, 09:59 AM
Got It, forgot about the other. Request was mostly for newcomers.
Thanks
Fred K

Patriot
01-10-2008, 11:41 PM
I'm in the process or working out how I might use two chronographs to do just that. If someone has already gone down this path and it is not measurable, please stop me. Any input is welcome. Here are my thoughts:
1) Compare two chronographs measuring any differences in their calibration.
2) Run the test at 100 yards to increase the variation
3) Run identical test cases using different rifles, ammo, tuners, wax, etc. for windy and calm conditions
4) Perform a statistical evaluation of the numbers to see what factors caused the greatest velocity loss (increased drag)
5) Compare the velocity loss to observed wind drift results, taking the 12/6 and 3/9 o'clock wind vector components into account.


Lilja and Sierra have a couple of interesting article. It looks like I need to factor in the density altitude when doing comparisons. But, using two chronographs seems to be the correct approach. In effect, I would be calculating difference BC's for a given rifle/bullet/tuner configuration in different winds.

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/measure_ballistic_coefficients.htm

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/5th/2311.cfm

Lilja also says that bullet imbalance would cause increased groups dispersion with faster twist barrels. This probably relates to uneven wax, but not wind.

Mark