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Kathy
12-28-2007, 05:00 PM
My friend Gordon:

The brittle and fudge are simply killer! I mean killer!

Thank you for the "weighted" Hall firing pin spring retainers.....I am going to call in some of my Halls and install them.....

Gordon, friend Starik has started a fine thread about what makes a barrel less wind sensitive.....a killer thread...but it is only part of the story.

I do not like to comment on other folks threads, especially when I want to change the flow.....

Gordon, a rimfire rifle barrel with a twist rate of between 16 and 17, with a rifling pattern that does not compress the bullet any more than a 4 groove barrel with a 65x35 groove to land ratio, and, is no larger in the grooves than .2220" at the crown, and, with a bore of no smaller than .2170", and, with the crown at the absolutely tightest place in the bore, WILL NOT BE WIND SENSITIVE!.......... Gordon, let me repeat this: WILL NOT BE WIND SENSITIVE.

But friend Gordon, there are so many killer barrels being made at this time just like I have described........but.....there is a more important factor that causes a rifle to be less wind sensitive........Would any of you folks on this fine forum care to venture a guess as to what that is?

I will give you a hint.........wax...

Friend Gordon, thank you again my friend, and thank your wife...Happy New Year.....


Your friend, Bill Calfee

GordonE
12-28-2007, 05:13 PM
Bill You are more than welcome. Hope you had a great Christmas and all the best in the New Year. I can never thank you enough.

A couple of friends from north Carolina brought to my attention that the last shipment of Eley has less lube. We don't get as much on the barrel breech and bolt face. This last shipment of Eley flat out shoots. Thats my guess.

Bob Collins
12-29-2007, 08:41 AM
Gordon and Sheri,
Thanks for the fudge and peanut brittle, it is Great. I sent Gordon and email yesterday thanking him and relating how my package had been “hijacked” at the post office. My Post Master, Tommy Cravey (a rim fire shooter) called Friday morning telling me he could see inside a package that had been torn on one corner, and he could see cake and cookies, and I need to come down and look at it. After arriving, he inspected and ate some of the contents, pronouncing it to be the best he had ever had – he’s experienced in checking packages. Then up drives Phil Deese – known as (pass the chicken, that the best I’ve ever had), now you can replace chicken with peanut brittle. Those two worked my little pile of candy over like two professionals.

Helping with Bill’s question, I’ll add to the wax, consistency of application, lube temperature, and the depth the bullet is put into the lube bath – there are more answers.

I hope you all had a Great Christmas, remembering the reason for the season, and we all have a Great New Year. I know two fellows who will need to go on a diet or get their sugar checked.
Bob Collins

Kathy
12-29-2007, 08:42 AM
Thanking out loud:

Friend Gordon, thanks again......

Thinking out loud about wind sensitivity:

The first Eley EPS had a reputation of being extremely accurate but wind sensitive.......... I worked with Eley and got them to produce the Round Nose bullet......... Eley sent me the first test lots of the new Round Nose bullet...... The first tests I ran, even before any pure accuracy tests, was to see if they were less sensitive to the wind..... They were....... I sent those tests to Eley....

Ok, still thinking out loud; I was shooting the exact same barrels, nothing was changed about the test guns........ which means there is a factor(s), besides the physical make-up of the barrel, that makes some guns more wind sensitive than others.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Patriot
12-29-2007, 09:36 AM
Thanking out loud:
Ok, still thinking out loud; I was shooting the exact same barrels, nothing was changed about the test guns........ which means there is a factor(s), besides the physical make-up of the barrel, that makes some guns more wind sensitive than others.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Bill,
Any chance you compared the muzzle and target velocities?

I keep thinking that there is any number of factors that could affect wind sensitivity. But, bottom line, they all add up to changes in induced lift/drag which would be the only way the wind would increase its grip. This includes increased velocity which reduces the time exposed to the wind linearly but increases drag exponentially.

Mark

burtona
12-29-2007, 09:50 AM
Twist rate is a huge determinate of apparant wind sensivity IMO. Bullets shot from a faster twist barrel will curve more in it's flight to the target. An anaology would be a baseball pitchers curve ball. The more rotation the more movement. If shooting in a certain wind speed, a let up or a slight gust will cause the POI to shift more than a slower twist.

Patriot
12-29-2007, 10:20 AM
Twist rate is a huge determinate of apparant wind sensivity IMO. Bullets shot from a faster twist barrel will curve more in it's flight to the target. An anaology would be a baseball pitchers curve ball. The more rotation the more movement. If shooting in a certain wind speed, a let up or a slight gust will cause the POI to shift more than a slower twist.

Interesting trade off, but the spin on a bullet is more like a football than a curveball. The spin would increase the lift slightly, and therefore drag, but that might be offset by the increased gyroscopic effect reducing any yaw sooner.

Mark

Wilbur
12-29-2007, 12:05 PM
How do I get on that fudge and brittle list?

Phil Deese
12-29-2007, 01:01 PM
Wilbur,
You may have to have prior experience like Tommy and I with "Search and Destory" missions...............:D:D:D:D I'm going to have Tommy inspect more packages going to Bob for any of that contraban. That was by far the best peanut brittle I have ever had. I thought only Georgia Boys knew how to make peanut brittle.

Kathy
12-29-2007, 03:54 PM
More thinking out loud:

If I completely fit a barrel, I mean everything, except for finishing the chamber, in other words, the chamber is "as reamed", then test it, then, tear the rifle back down, hobb and polish the chamber, in other words, properly finish the chamber, the "as reamed" chambered barrel will be extremely wind sensitive. As soon as I properly finish the chamber, the barrel is no longer wind sensitive.

The twist rate of the barrel has not changed, nor the crown, nor the bore nor groove diameters......

Why does a barrel with a properly finished chamber become less wind sensitive than the same barrel with an "as reamed" or non finished chamber?

There is a reason.

Your friend, Bill Calfee

tim
12-29-2007, 04:36 PM
And...?

GordonE
12-29-2007, 05:40 PM
Bill
Im glad you enjoyed it. When you're ready for more let me know

Bob
Its my pleasure. When you ready for more just let me know

Phil
I may have to take you up on your offer. Is it warm where you live? Also is there fishing?

Wilbur I need your address

Thanks Shari

Beau
12-29-2007, 09:22 PM
More thinking out loud:

If I completely fit a barrel, I mean everything, except for finishing the chamber, in other words, the chamber is "as reamed", then test it, then, tear the rifle back down, hobb and polish the chamber, in other words, properly finish the chamber, the "as reamed" chambered barrel will be extremely wind sensitive. As soon as I properly finish the chamber, the barrel is no longer wind sensitive.

The twist rate of the barrel has not changed, nor the crown, nor the bore nor groove diameters......

Why does a barrel with a properly finished chamber become less wind sensitive than the same barrel with an "as reamed" or non finished chamber?

There is a reason.

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Calfee pixie dust has been added.

Bill for the uninformed why don't you let us know what you mean by "Hobb". I mean just because you and I understand all this does not mean everyone does and this is not a common term.

GordonE
12-30-2007, 04:50 AM
Bill
When you finish the chamber. It is smooth and the Hobb removes all the tool marks on the leade angle. Giving the bullet a smoother start in flight.

Vibe
12-30-2007, 11:05 AM
Gordon, a rimfire rifle barrel with a twist rate of between 16 and 17, with a rifling pattern that does not compress the bullet any more than a 4 groove barrel with a 65x35 groove to land ratio, and, is no larger in the grooves than .2220" at the crown, and, with a bore of no smaller than .2170", and, with the crown at the absolutely tightest place in the bore,
Has anyone ever heard of a BR grade barrel being attempted using something like the Marlin microgroove rifling? IE Lots of very shallow lands. But to BR specs as opposed to mass produced production rifle tolerances.


there is a more important factor that causes a rifle to be less wind sensitive........Would any of you folks on this fine forum care to venture a guess as to what that is?

I will give you a hint.........wax...
Your friend, Bill Calfee
Yep too much of it is not a good thing. Especially on the bullet nose.

Kathy
12-30-2007, 12:47 PM
Friend Beau:

I agree, I have used the term "hobb" and I need to explain it....

Friend Gordon E:

You are correct......

I have asked Donna Brown and Brad541 if they would post a picture of my hobb on this thread....If you two can do this, I thank you up front...bc

The word "hobb" is probably incorrect as someone on this forum pointed out a couple of months ago...... the correct term should be "burnishing"

A burnishing, chambering reamer is fluted......

Obviously a burnisher for the leade of the chamber can't be fluted, but has to be solid.....so I call it a "hobb"......no other reason..

When the picture is posted, what you will see is my piloted hobb....the hobb is extremely hard, it has not been drawn....Rockwell "C" probably 68 or so.

The pilot does not guide the hobb.....I don't want it to.....I want the hobb to follow the leade, not the top of the lands......so the pilot is .004" under bore size....I just use it as a safety device.....it has no other function....

The hobb must be used before any other chamber finishing is done.

I intend to write an article on my chambering methods for Precision Shooting in the future, such as they are.........I will detail how I use the hobb then.

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Kent Owens
12-30-2007, 02:35 PM
Bill Calfee,
Thanks for sharing your methods on this forum. I always enjoy reading them, and there's no question on the results you get from the methods you use. You build some great rimfire rifles, and I like reading about how you do that. I look forward to your article on chambers and how you "hobb" 'em and polish them, anything on rimfire is interesting reading. Hope you had a nice Christmas and wish you a Happy New Year! Take care.

brad541thb
12-30-2007, 03:52 PM
http://www.hunt101.com/data/546/Hobb.jpg

brad541thb
12-30-2007, 04:03 PM
There ya go Bill.

I would like to add something here if I may.

I spoke to Bill Calfee a few days ago on the phone. We talked and talked about dang near everything. Bill is just a walking gun book of knowledge. He is also a down-to-earth type of guy. I also gave Bill some insight on the people who seem to post crap out of the blue on his threads and to just let it run in one ear and out the other. Some of those people obviously don't know the real Bill Calfee. I can tell you that I have spoken to none better or smarter when it comes to being a super nice gentleman and a wealth of firearm knowledge that contributes tons of info to this site.

It was a honor to speak to you Bill. I mean that.

Happy New Year Bill!

Brad

Kathy
12-31-2007, 11:21 AM
Friend Brad:

I too enjoyed out talk the other day....and thank you, and Donna, for doing the pictures......

Brad, I learned a long time ago not to make pronouncements of fact on this fine forum....it usually winds up starting an arguement......I find it works out better to get folks thinking by asking questions....

More thinking outloud about wind sensitivity:

If a rimfire target rifle barrel is produced with the requirements I listed at the start of this thread, there is absolutely no difference in wind sensitivity between a 16 twist barrel or a 17 twist barrel.

If 16 twist barrels were less wind sensitive, there would be nothing but 16 twist barrels produced, as folks want to win and they will use the best.

The length of the barrel has no bearing, within reason, on how wind sensitive a gun is. If it was determined that a 23 inch long barrel was absolutley the least wind sensitive, there would be nothing but 23 inch barrels.

The velocity of the bullet, as long it is between about 1040 and 1080 FPS has absolutely no bearing on the wind sensitivity of the gun. If it were determined that a 1040 velocity produced the least wind sensitivity, there would be nothing but 1040 velocity bullets produced, as folks want to win.

A gun being wind sensitive is not a product of the physical properities of the barrel, as long as the barrel is made like I described in the opening of this thread.

So what does cause the wind sensitivity to vary in some guns, assuming they all used barrels manufactured as I described at the start of this thread?

I will repeat my hint, and I know this is going to sound too simple..........."wax"

Your friend, Bill calfee

Kent Owens
12-31-2007, 12:20 PM
Bill,
Did you make the "hobb" tool? That's a very interesting too. I had imagined it had rounded flutes like a reamer, just a burnishing reamer of sorts. Been wondering what it looked like for a while, thanks for posting it. I was thinking of making one with rounded flutes from tool steel and hardening it. I guess you have 'em for .224 case mouth sizes and .225 sizes, or does one tool work for both? If this is info you plan on putting into an article, I can understand why you wouldn't want to disclose it at this time. Thanks.

GordonE
12-31-2007, 01:29 PM
Bill
Thanks for the picture of the Hobb. I would think it would have to fit the Leade angle in order to smooth it.
Dosen't the lube in a barrel have to be consistant from shot to shot? When changing different lots of ammo, The first shot will go close to or in the same place as the old lot. Then make a group of it's own.

starik
12-31-2007, 02:30 PM
First of all, I don't understand why to open 3 threads on the same subject.
Second, Mr. Calffe, I am sure that the velocity of the bullet effects it's sensitivity to wind. Few years ago I was shooting Russian ammo, made for pistol(pistol Olimp)lot no. op32-89 and op31-88. This was the best ammo I ever had.The velocity of those lots was 985fps.It was much better in the wind than any ammo I ever tested. The ammo was from 1988 and 1989.It shot the smallest groups I have ever seen from test bench through 3 different barrels.
The best prone shooter in the world, Sergey Martinov from BLR still shoots with op31-88 and made 5 times a perfect score of 600 with it.(world record).
I was in Eley test range 5 times already, and they can't make ammo with velocity of 985fps to group well. I am shooting only tenex for the last 5 years, and Eley have great ammo these days, but the pistol olymp was better, no doubt about it. I don't think it was the wax because I have shot a lot of rifle olymp which had the same sensitivity to wind like tenex, and the same velocity 1160fps.
Guy.

hulk
12-31-2007, 04:04 PM
It's been about a year, any updates? Thanks.

Kathy
12-31-2007, 05:15 PM
Friend Hulk:

My friend, we've got to get to the bottom of this wind sensitivity thing, so we don't have to worry about it, EVER AGAIN.....so be cool..

Friend Gordon E: You are correct......but we need to play this thing out for once and for all.......

So, I have some more "thinking out loud" posts to post...

..wax....

Happy New Year to all the awesome folks on this fine forum...


Your friend Bill Calfee

Kathy
01-01-2008, 10:56 AM
More thinking out loud

Friend Gordon E: Yes, the hobb, pictured, is 2 degrees as is the leade angle of all Calfee reamers....this particular hobb can be used in both my .2250" and 2255" chamber leades.......the .2260" reamer takes a different hobb....

MORE THINKING OUT LOUD

What happens when a rimfire benchrest barrel wears out?

Say a killer barrel has not been damaged by cleaning, etc., and say after a large mumber of rounds are fired through it, its guilt edge accuracy falls off.

Why? I mean, what physically happens to the bore and how does it affect the bullet, causing it to loose accuracy?

See. a killer barrel, that starts to loose its guilt edge, also becomes more wind sensitive....this is why it is so difficult to turn big cards with one.

The answer revolves around the same thing......."wax"

Later on during one of these thinking out loud posts, I'm going to give a perfect example, that everyone on this forum will be familiar with, about the role that "wax" plays in producing both accuracy and wind sensitivity.

Your friend, Bill Calfee "HAPPY NEW YEAR"

GordonE
01-01-2008, 12:12 PM
Bill, Happy New Year to You and all the Rimfire Shooters.

Bill, "Keep thinking out loud". For a whole bunch of us this not only educational but a lot of fun.

Something that puzzles me. When you get a lot of rounds through a barrel. The 6:00 groove gets pitted. first at the chamber and eventually to the muzzle. In the beginning it dosent effect accuracy much. That groove holds more lube than the other grooves. When it gets full length of the barrel the accuracy does fall off. Is it time to rechamber, or a new barrel?

Kathy
01-01-2008, 05:15 PM
Friend Gordon:

I quote from you: "Something that puzzles me. When you get a lot of rounds through a barrel. The 6:00 groove gets pitted. first at the chamber and eventually to the muzzle. In the beginning it dosent effect accuracy much. That groove holds more lube than the other grooves."

Friend Gordon: You have described the wear pattern of a rimfire benchrest barrel, exactly.....

We have some more " Thinking out loud posts to do" then when everyone, or almost everyone, is comfortable, we will finish this discussion about what makes some guns more wind sensitive than others....

Friend Gordon, I don't know nothing...I'm just a dumb old guy that loves rimfire accuracy more than life itself......my life is my little guns . But, I learned a long time ago, you can't make folks mad with what you say...

You tell them the problems, then get them to help you with the answers.....

Then everyone, almost everyone, is happy...cause nothing has been shoved down their throats...

Gordon. I want folks to understand why some guns are more wind sensitive than others.....but I don't want to hurt folks feeling doing it...

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Patriot
01-01-2008, 11:44 PM
At the risk of embarrassing myself with a guess; the lube loads up on the front of the bullet unevenly causing it to wobble creating more drag?

Mark

Kathy
01-02-2008, 12:56 PM
More thinking out loud:

The kind of accuracy we achieve with these little lead bullet rimfires is dependent on the bullet carrying a uniform layer of wax, around the entire circumference of the bullet, and, carrying an even layer wax, around the entire circumference of the bullet, AHEAD OF THE FRONT DRIVING BAND, from the leade of the chamber to the exit of the crown......

When using a match grade, rimfire barrel like I decsribed at the beginning of this thread, if any condition is present, in the bore of the barrel, that prevents what I described in the above paragraph from happening, we loose accuracy and increase wind sensitivity.........

There are several things that can cause the bore of a "killer" barrel to disturb the even distribution of wax on the bullet, and, ahead of it. Improperly finishing the leade of the chamber I've already discussed, or a misaligned chamber. The combustion/lead ring build up can be a cause. The bore being worn from much use is another cause.

When I worked with Eley on the Round Nose bullet, the one thing I determined during my testing, was the need to have a good, deep, front shoulder, and, ENOUGH WAX for the deep shoulder to carry that wax all the way to the exit of the crown.

The Eley Round Nose and the new EPS both have the same length driving bands, and, the same good, deep front shoulder, and plenty of wax to allow the bullet to carry it to the exit of the crown.

More thinking out loud shortly...

Your friend, Bill Calfee

BrentD
01-02-2008, 01:58 PM
Bill, have you ever heard of "lube purging" that results in a cycle of fliers every X number of shots? I personally do not put much stock in the hypothesis but some folks in other diciplines do. They think that lube builds up in the rifle somehow and then every so often, an excess amount is purged in a single shot resulting in a flier. The thought is that less lube is better in such cases.

Just thinkin' out loud as you say.

Brent

GordonE
01-03-2008, 06:02 AM
Bill, Does Leade angle have anything to do with how the lube is distributed down the barrel?

Kathy
01-03-2008, 12:22 PM
Thinking out loud:

Lube purging? I doubt it, but don't know for sure....... All things being equal, the one factor that will make a killer barrel throw a flipper is condensate in the bore.

Leade angle and the ability to evenly distribute wax around the bullet.....?

If the leade is properly "finished", leade angle does not matter.......but there are other factors.

Always remember; the smaller the leade angle, the longer the actual leade is, which means more of the tops of the lands, that make up the leade, are damaged by the cutting action of the reamer.....and this must be addressed.

It's much harder to "properly" finish a 1-1/2 degree leade than a 2 degree.....and extremely difficult to "properly" finish a 1 degree leade........

Also, the leade life of a 1 or 1 1/2 degree leade is less than the leade life of a 2 degree leade.....

All Calfee reamers use a 2 degree leade, not because it is initially more accurate, but 2 degrees is the best compromise between ease of "properly" finishing the leade and the accuracy life of the leade....

When the leade angle gets above 2-1/2 degrees the bullet is put through an orifice, instead of a gradual transition to the bore....

All of this above information, I've already THOUGHT OUT LOUD ABOUT, IN DETAIL, in my past Precision Shooting writings. Back copies are available.

More thinking out loud as time permits ...Your friend, Bill Calfee

PS Brian Harvey: Would you be offended if I discuss your winning the 8th target with that great 2400, at the 2007 ARA Indoor Nationals? I will not do it without your permission. bc

Kathy
01-08-2008, 09:29 AM
More thinking out loud:

I described how a rimfire target barrel should be configured, at the start of this thread, that will produce the absolute least amount of wind sensitivity, as far as the design of the barrel itself is concerned.....

The factor that will allow a barrel configured as I described, to not be wind sensitive, is the proper application of wax in the bore........I've already "thought out loud" about this in previous posts here....

So, the question remains, why will some barrels, configured exactly like I described at the start of this thread, be more wind sensitive that others configured exactly the same way? There is an answer, and the shooters who understand that answer, and apply it to their equipment, will have the greatest chance of success.

What would happen if we removed 1/2 of the wax from the driving bands and ogive of the bullet, from 5 cartridges, then shot those 5 cartridges against 5 cartridges from the same lot number that have all their wax intact, in the same wind? Would one of these groups of 5 bullets buck the wind better than the other? Or would there be no difference?

The answer to the above implication is the secret to having a gun that shoots in the win, as long as the barrel is configured exactly like I described at the beginning of this thread.

More "thinking out loud later"

Your friend, Bill Calfee

pacecil
01-08-2008, 11:53 AM
In your hypothetical test where you shoot 5 wax altered bullets into a group and then shoot 5 unaltered bullets into a group, I suspect you might see a .1 difference in group size. You could then shoot two more groups with either the altered or unaltered bullets and probably see the same .1 spread. You can do this all day long and continue to see this .1 spread in groups. This is just the way 22 rimfires distribute shots in their groups - it can't prove anything one way or the other about the changes you make in wax or anything else. Now, if your change in wax made say a .3 or .4 change in group size then you might see this. Is this close to how much change you think wax makes? My real question is: How do you determine how minor changes affect group size - or if you want to really answer a tough one, how do you determine slight differences in wind effect?

I'm not being critical of any of the "thinking" you or anyone else is doing. I'm not questioning any of your ideas or conclusions. I'm simply trying to find out what it is you base your opinions and theories on. If it is just as simple as - "I just look at where the shots fall", then I understand.

pacecil
01-08-2008, 02:35 PM
A difference of .1 in AVERAGE is significant. That's not what was considered here. The .1 difference was to occur between two single 5 shot groups. A difference of .1 under this circumstance has to be looked at very carefully if you are going to make a conclusion from it.

BrentD
01-08-2008, 02:40 PM
I won't claim to be an expert in .22 BR as you guys know it, but I do understand testing and drawing conclusions. What passes for adequate testing in riflery is a bit frustrating to me, so I put together a webpage on the topic that you might find useful. Of course, if you are happy with your status quo, that is fine too.

Anyway see http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Stats/Testing%20loads.htm for a more powerful approach.

Brent

pacecil
01-08-2008, 09:22 PM
If your groups always measure the same size within .05 then I give up. You have a very consistent shooting gun and ammo. I have to admit I've never owned or seen a gun or ammo this good. This is even better than the best centerfires. You should win a lot with such a gun.

You might take a look at the link in the BrentD post. This may be something you can't use, or don't need to use, but it's pretty good stuff. It's just statistics and relies on information from a number of groups. If your shooting results are such you get all the information you need from one or two groups then you are very lucky and I wish you the best.

Kathy
01-09-2008, 10:52 AM
More thinking out loud:

In the experiment I spoke of earlier, with half the wax removed from some bullets, then tested against bullets with all wax left on, the half waxed bullets will be more wind sensitive......anyone can prove this for themself...

Thinking out loud........in this test, the barrel did not change....the twist rate did not change....which means the one factor that causes some barrels to be more wind sensitive than others, IF THEY MEET THE SPECS I LISTED AT THE START OF THIS THREAD, is the even distribution of wax, both on and in front of the driving bands all the way to the exit of the crown......

Now, thinking out loud again: Why does a barrel loose accuracy after a bunch of rounds?

My friends, I'm not looking for anyone to answer these questions, although you're welcome to if you wish.........I'm only attempting to get shooters to think about how we produce match winning accuracy with these little waxed, lead bullet guns...

There is so much more to think about....but, folks, I don't like these big threads.....they tend to get confusing after a while so I may start another on this same subject.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Fiddler
01-11-2008, 12:49 PM
Are you talking about Glazing of the barrel due to the number of rounds put down it or poor cleaning methods? How the barrel was lapped from the start etc...

Kathy
01-11-2008, 02:28 PM
Friend Fiddler:

By the way, as I type this I just swallowed the last piece of Gordon E's killer fudge.......

A barrel could stop shooting from both improper cleaning and wear....

But, let's consentrate on wear......

Thinking out loud some more: When a rimfire target barrel gets enough rounds fired through it for it to loose its guilt edge accuracy, what physically happens to the bore? What does the bore of a rimfire target barrel look like when it starts to loose its accuracy?

See, the thing that physically takes place in the bore, when a barrel starts loosing acccuracy, alters the ability of the bullet to carry wax to the muzzle..........

We are right back to where we started....the secret to killer rimfire accuracy, and, WIND SENSITIVITY.......is WAX......

Do you folks think we should start a new thread on this subject? This one is getting hard to keep up with......I have never cared for them giant threads as they got so hard to follow.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Mike S
01-11-2008, 03:14 PM
Thinking Out Loud ....

So ya think that comment by Bill will be enough to get Good Ole Gordon E to send him some more killer fudge ... only time will tell

Mike ... the devil made me do it :D

GordonE
01-11-2008, 04:15 PM
Bill
You Keep Thinking Out Loud and more Fudge will be on the way.

Joe Friedrich
01-11-2008, 05:03 PM
Bill, you have mentioned in prior posts where you de-glaze a barrel when it starts to lose accuracy, knowing other factors you mentioned in your last post here will cause accuracy problem's as well, but if this is not the case, then Bill, as Steve asked also, would you be so kind as to explain how you de-glaze a barrel or what causes it. I know brake pads and concrete diamond blades will glaze, but these two examples generate a lot more heat in different applications.

Thanks......Joe

benzy2
01-11-2008, 05:05 PM
I quote from you: "Something that puzzles me. When you get a lot of rounds through a barrel. The 6:00 groove gets pitted. first at the chamber and eventually to the muzzle. In the beginning it dosent effect accuracy much. That groove holds more lube than the other grooves."

Friend Gordon: You have described the wear pattern of a rimfire benchrest barrel, exactly.....
Your friend, Bill Calfee


Thinking out loud some more: When a rimfire target barrel gets enough rounds fired through it for it to loose its guilt edge accuracy, what physically happens to the bore? What does the bore of a rimfire target barrel look like when it starts to loose its accuracy?

See, the thing that physically takes place in the bore, when a barrel starts loosing acccuracy, alters the ability of the bullet to carry wax to the muzzle..........

We are right back to where we started....the secret to killer rimfire accuracy, and, WIND SENSITIVITY.......is WAX......

Your friend, Bill Calfee

I have zero experience in BR shooting or BR barrels to know anything. That said I have a guess or two based on what has been said here. Since wax seems to be the consistent hint and Mr. Calfee has agreed that a worn out barrel has pitting and also repeats that it is the wax in front of and on the driving band that is important could it be that the pitting disrupts the wax in front of and then on the driving band as it travels down the barrel? It seemed to work as a solution at first but the more I think about it Im not sure. If that were the case I would think as the barrel is shot the pitting would fill with wax and the effects would decrease after more rounds in between cleanings. Even filled with wax the edges of the pits may be enough of a disruption that the bullet has uneven wax or no wax in front of or at the driving band.

The other thought had to do with the statement that the groove held more wax than the others. Again the repeated remarks that the wax needs to be even in front of the driving band would lead to thoughts that if wax were built up heavier in one area of the barrel it would lead to uneven wax at the driving band. This doesn't seem to work with this "See, the thing that physically takes place in the bore, when a barrel starts loosing acccuracy, alters the ability of the bullet to carry wax to the muzzle.........." as I take alters the ability to mean decrease the ability though I guess it could just as well mean unevenly alter and have nothing to do with decreasing.

Just a total shot in the dark there. The first two things that came to mind with all the hints that have been tossed out. Please don't laugh too loud at my ignorance.

Patriot
01-11-2008, 06:23 PM
benzy2,
I'm in the same boat without BR experience. I can think of several potential issues:
1) The uneven wax has caused the bullet to be aerodynamically out of balance increasing drag
2) The bullet has a weight imbalance directly from the wax or indirectly from being deformed, increasing yaw and thereby drag
3) A side force is being imparted on the bullet as it leaves the muzzle increasing yaw
4) All of the above to varying degrees

Dang it Bill. To quote the bank robber in Dirty Harry," I gots to know" :)

Mark

Kathy
01-11-2008, 06:36 PM
My friends:

Friend benzy2: I quote form you:

"I have zero experience in BR shooting or BR barrels to know anything. That said I have a guess or two based on what has been said here. Since wax seems to be the consistent hint and Mr. Calfee has agreed that a worn out barrel has pitting and also repeats that it is the wax in front of and on the driving band that is important could it be that the pitting disrupts the wax in front of and then on the driving band as it travels down the barrel?"

Friend benzy: My friend.....you are exactly right...thank you my friend...

Oh benzy.......you tell this forum all of your thoughts...please..

A worn out barrel removes the wax from one side of the bullet...then the bullet becomes unballanced, then it is wind sensitive.....AND UNACCURATE...

Frendy benzy.........keep your thinking cap on my friend.......we've got work to do.........OK?

Let me ask again, should we start another thread? this one is tooo big...

Benzy.....you keep your mind open......if you see something that old Bill Calfee says that is wrong.....holler! as loud as you can...

Your friend Bill Calfee

Kathy
01-11-2008, 06:53 PM
Friend Mark:

To quote from you.............."I gots to know"......

Be patient........we will do this thing slowly......

Your friend, BC

denphillips2
01-11-2008, 07:37 PM
Bill,

Me personaly, I would keep this thread going. People know about this one even thou it is not titled as what it is ending up like. I like the information all it one spot, instead of having to sort through a bunch of differnt threads.
Just my opinion......

Thoughts on the wax.... Now, I am taking a stab in the dark at this.
The reason that a bullet is less wind sensative. When it has the proper wax coating all the way down the bore, it will leave with a wax still at the top of the driving band. This wax will fill the corner between the driving band, and the bullet nose giving the bullet a more aerodynamic shape. This will lessen the drag on the bullet.

Keep the "thinking out loud" coming, Bill. I am lovin it!

Gordon, Ya gotta love bribery!!! :D

Denny

dkwflight
01-11-2008, 10:24 PM
Hi The above arguments m,ight explain why my CZ 450 Varmint need to be very hot,
If I shoot ely eps.
I can shoot 20-30 rnds very fast. to get the barrel warm, I will then get a string of very tight groups for as long as I can shoot as fast as I can cycle the bolt.
Thanks
Dennis

pacecil
01-12-2008, 12:09 PM
Variation in wax or lubrication from bullet to bullet will affect poi. Variation in lube from one side of a bullet to the other would be a little harder to explain. Not saying it doesn't exist, just saying it would seem unlikely to occur considering how uniform most bullets seem to be. If you can improve on the factory's application of lubricant, that is apply it in a more uniform manner, or apply a "better" lubricant. then you might improve accuracy.

As to lubricants effect on the flight of a bullet; I think air moving over the bullet at about the speed of sound quickly cleans all the oil or wax off the bullet nose and you are left with just a bare lead bullet to be affected by drag forces or weight distribution. You can judge how clean a bullet might be by just directing the nozzle of an air hose at a bullet and you will see it blows away nearly all the wax or lubricant leaving hardly anything more than just a film probably a few molecules thick - certainly not enough to change the bullet's profile.

Calfee's (and others) suggestion that lubricant plays a role in rimfire accuracy is valid. To what degree it has effect may be something difficult to determine.

HovisKM
01-12-2008, 12:21 PM
I agree with most of what you said. But one thing I did do, shoot some targets (normal target paper) with normal bullets and study the holes and then shoot some where you wipe most of the lube off. Quite a bit different hole. Not talking about group size. Just the residue on the target paper. If I'm wrong on this, please correct me. I only tried it once because of a discussion I heard. How does lube effect accuracy other than understanding it does....I have absolutely no idea and am reading this thread with interest.

Hovis

pacecil
01-12-2008, 05:40 PM
The black around the bullet hole is probably the same black you get on the cleaning patch. It's maybe a combination of lead, graphite, carbon, ash, burnt and unburnt powder, lubricant, and whatever else is left after you fire a round. All this stuff may be what affects accuracy since I'm sure it has some effect on friction - which in turn affects velocity - which in turn effects vibration - and as some believe affects wind response - and so on and on.

Other than a slight change in poi with maybe a round or two when you change from bullets with one lube to bullets with another lube I don't really detect a difference in accuracy that I can prove results from a change in lubrication. I suppose if you piled up wax in excess, or on one side of the bullet, as Calfee suggests, then I guess you could affect accuracy. He also suggests if your bullet has to run over water, condensate as he calls it, this also would affect where the bullet hits the target. This all makes sense, but again; does any reasonable difference in lubrication that we see in good bullets have any significant effect on accuracy?

We know the different brands of ammo are lubricated with every thing from oils, which are essentially fluids, all the way to waxes, which are essentially solids. If you look at the properties of these lubricants, you find you can have some serious viscosity changes with waxes when they undergo temperature change. But then it's difficult to keep a consistent quantity of a light oil on a bullet as it is manufactured and handled. The bottom line is, I guess, maybe the perfect bullet lubricant hasn't yet been found but unless some extreme condition exists (excess lube, no lube, high temperature, low temperature, water, dirt) then most of the ammo you find out there isn't too bad.

Kathy
01-14-2008, 05:22 PM
Friend Denny:

I quote from you my friend:

"Thoughts on the wax.... Now, I am taking a stab in the dark at this.
The reason that a bullet is less wind sensative. When it has the proper wax coating all the way down the bore, it will leave with a wax still at the top of the driving band. This wax will fill the corner between the driving band, and the bullet nose giving the bullet a more aerodynamic shape. This will lessen the drag on the bullet.

Denny, BINGO.........

Denny.......we have so much to discuss....all of us....

A bullet, not to be wind sensitive, has to carry an even distribution of wax, from the leade of the chamber, to the exit of the crown.....

So, what happens when a barrel wears from shooting? I do not mean to put you on the spot...........you don't need to answer.....

The answers will come out in this thread....slowly, so no one feels offended in any way.........

A hint: Wax.......what happens in the bore of a rimfire target barrel, that has been shot a bunch, to prevent the even distribution of wax, completely around the bullet, from being pushed to the crown?

Denny, you need not answer unless you want to......we will do some more "thinking out loud" shortly.....

Oh Denny, I've got some work over on the centerfire forum that I feel I must attend to concerning "relaxing Triggers, which we all will be using shortly...
but we must get this wind sensitivity thing worked out too.....

Your friend, Bill Calfee

hoser
01-14-2008, 07:23 PM
Powder residue from a pevious shot falls to the 6 oclock position in the bore, and it will wear away the nice bright finish of the bore when a bullet passes over it repeatedly ... the same groove each time I might add.

Hose

Carp
01-14-2008, 08:35 PM
In my years of shooting archery, I can say this....I have a recent work of art in single cam technology that shoots better than any bow I have ever owned. But that could be me. But also I have extensively shot a recurve that really liked HELICAL feathers that didn't care about the type of broadhead on them or types and weights of target points. The feathers stabilized the points. If you damaged a single feather, however slightly, it would effect the POI. I assume that bullets, with a precise cut in the lead from the barrel (which is a function of both the quality of the barrel and the wax distributed around the bullet through the barrel) would have a wonderful helix of stablilization from "wings" cut in lead. The rougher the barrel or the mis-distribution of wax would effect this. This may sound dumb but I've been thinking about it for the last few months because of deer season. It has ended and now my mind is on shooting season. I'm biting at the bit and can't wait for spring. BC, I'm sure that you feel the same. It's just time for some good weather and good shooting.

Carp

denphillips2
01-14-2008, 10:59 PM
So, what happens when a barrel wears from shooting? I do not mean to put you on the spot...........you don't need to answer.....

A hint: Wax.......what happens in the bore of a rimfire target barrel, that has been shot a bunch, to prevent the even distribution of wax, completely around the bullet, from being pushed to the crown?



Hmmmm...

Couple things come to mind. The most visual is the pitting, and dish out in front of the lead. This could cause the wax to be deposited more, and it could also get more filled with wax so the bullet pushes more from there.

As you said, the bore gets glazed, too slick. This would be a less visual aspect. This would not cause an uneven application of wax on the bullet, but I think that it could cause a shot to shot varience. The smoother, slick bore doesn't hold the wax like a bore with some texture to it.

Could be wrong, but it is something to think about....... :confused:

Off to bed...... And I won't be able to sleep because I am thinking of this......

Denny

pacecil
01-15-2008, 12:14 PM
Normal wax lubricant will not build up on a bullet and change it's B.C. The velocity of air over the bullet removes nearly all the buildup and leaves basically a clean bullet. Very old wax, wax that has dried, might adhere to the bullet and affect B. C. There is no difference in a bullet's response to wind that is due to wax or lubricant buildup unless you were to artificially mold a different shape onto the bullet's nose. There may be a difference in wind response due to yaw in flight cause by a "lubricant effect" but this is not a shape change due to lubricant in the bullet.

A very slick bore would cause, or allow, a thinner lubricant film to build up between the bullet and bore. Thin films do create added friction. The difference would not be enough to cause a velocity difference that would result in a noticeable wind effect difference unless the difference in bore finish is very great. Very smooth bores will be best lubricated by lighter, less viscous, oil rather than wax. After everything is warm there is little difference between oil and wax since wax viscosity falls off rapidly and becomes almost same as oil.

A few pits in a bore will cause no significant difference in bullet flight. A lot of pits could be the equivalent of a rough surface and could affect bullet flight. Unless the difference between "smooth" and "rough" bore is so great as to cause extreme yawing there will be no difference in response to wind. Factors other than bore finish (crown, chamber and throat dimensions, alignment, vibration) can affect yawing and thus response to wind.

Kathy
01-15-2008, 04:44 PM
Friends Denny and hoser:

You guys are "thinking out loud just fine"......you both are on the right track...

But, I've got some work to do on the centerfire forum.....then we'll get back here....

Friend pacecil: I read your post.

Your friend, Bill Calfee

hoser
01-15-2008, 05:35 PM
Normal wax lubricant will not build up on a bullet and change it's B.C. The velocity of air over the bullet removes nearly all the buildup and leaves basically a clean bullet..

Nope...

I did a test a few weeks ago trying to find a lubricant to lube up some cheap bulk ammo.

I have those targets in my hand as I type and they tell an interesting story.

The raw, unlubed ammo makes a "clean" hole.

The lubed ammo (melted bees wax and neutral shoe polish (whitish on the unfired bullet) makes a very dirty hole.

I conclude that the wax is basically intact ahead of the bullet bearing surface and is carrying a larger quantity of particulate from the previous shot.

The unlubed bullet is not carrying very much.

I shot an ARA target with both and the lubed ammo scored 200 pts higher.

http://g4.yeka.net/lubed-vs-unlubed.jpg

denphillips2
01-15-2008, 06:01 PM
Since the powder residue and priming compound will lay at the bottom of the bore, that will have an effect on the wear pattern of the rifling. Most of it building up near the breech end of the barrel.

Does that mean that one groove will "shine" up faster than others? The one that is on the bottom at the chamber end..... Because the bullet will carry that residue down the barrel in that groove.


What this means for wax distrubutation, I haven't figured it out exactly yet...
:confused::confused::confused:


Denny

B. Harvey
01-15-2008, 06:16 PM
Bill, I would be delighted to discuss the 8th target at the ARA indoor nationals.

I have not been following this thread and that is why I took so long to respond.

Fire away.

Carp
01-15-2008, 09:24 PM
If you can control, by indexing (not necessarily the term barrel indexing) a barrel, the primer compounds and powder residue to keep this bad stuff from the 6:00 position to prevent the distortion of a bullet.....but it will only make it more consistent which is a very credible thing. Being that it should be predictable. Hum....that is a good thing isn't it. If one could position a barrel of X twist and X grooves so that the 6:00 position was farthest from the leade....then maybe it would last longer and shoot better?

Carp

Kathy
01-16-2008, 11:31 AM
Friend Brian:

First, Congratulations on that awesome 2400......you obviously know how to point a rimfire benchrest gun....

As soon as we, together, the folks "thinking out loud", on this thread, about the issue of why some barrels are more wind sensitive than others and the role that wax plays, is complete........I will discuss that fine target and the rifle you shot it with........that rifle is a perfect example of what we're discussing here. I believe everyone who has kept up with this tread will be surprised.

Again awesome shooting Brian...your friend, Bill Calfee

GordonE
01-17-2008, 05:23 AM
When shooting in real cold temps.( In the teens) Shooting from a warm building with plexiglass blocking the window except for muzzle and the scope mirrage tube. With the gun warm it shoots fine. After the tuner and a couple inches of the barrel gets real cold, Accuracy drops off. Could it be the wax is a different thickness or amount when it is colder at the muzzle. Meaning that it has to be exactly the same from breech to muzzle.Bring the gun inside and When it warms up it shoots fine again.

Kathy
01-17-2008, 01:04 PM
Friend Gordon E and Friends:

I started this thread and I don't want to hijack it, or change it's tone, as we have a lot more to discuss....thinking out loud. But, I want to make an announcement please. I have already made this announcement on the centerfire forum, under Brad541:

I have had great success with my XP-22's that I've installed my Manually Re-set, Relaxed triggers in.......It is time to progress further.

I have two Calfee/Turbo Spec Rifles under construction. Therefore, I've decided that these two Calfee/Turbo Spec Rifles will come equipped with the Manually Re-set, Relaxed Trigger.

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Tom C.
01-17-2008, 03:22 PM
i know this probably can't be done but is it possible
to make a rifle where you could turn the barrel occasionally
to even the wear or put a purging device to blow out the
barrel between shots. jes a thought.

Kathy
01-17-2008, 05:26 PM
Friend Tom C:

I read your post, then made a post or two, then shut down my machine.

But, as I was getting ready to fix supper, I decided I had to get back on here and respond to you my friend: I quote from you:

"don't laugh

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i know this probably can't be done but is it possible
to make a rifle where you could turn the barrel occasionally
to even the wear or put a purging device to blow out the
barrel between shots. jes a thought. "

Tom C: If we could do as you suggest, our rimfire benchrest barrels might go 200,000 rounds of Killer accuracy.....but we can't...at least not yet..

Before folks comment that this could somehow be done with a clamped barrel system......it can't.......for a bunch of reasons that I've already addressed in other writings....

But, if we could do what you suggest,Tom, with a threaded barrel system......man, that would be killer awesome......but that. so far, can't be done either...

My friend Tom: This is going to seem plumb silly.....but my friend, I would like to present you with the first "CALFEE THINKING OUT LOUD AWARD" .

Tom C, your question was very well thought out, and, extremely important........

Tom, keep thinking out loud..

Your friend, Bill Calfee.....

Tom C.
01-17-2008, 07:15 PM
just wondered i'm sure with are the variables to meet
would be difficult but i just thought i'd ask, you've seemed
to manage the difficult before. you don't know if you don't ask.

Vibe
01-18-2008, 09:58 AM
But, if we could do what you suggest,Tom, with a threaded barrel system......man, that would be killer awesome......but that. so far, can't be done either...

Sure it can. Just need a threaded bushing - threaded ID and OD - with different pitch threads. Not sure if it would be better than a clamped system (and why can't you do it with a clamped system?) I'm also not convinced that indexing the barrel wouldn't provide one position more accurate than all the others. So indexing it to "chase" wear, might not give to more life to that "killer" barrel after all - just more life to the barrel as a whole.

And as for the purging system...I think I could do that as well...a little CO2 and the right sized felt plugs. Probably wouldn't "make weight" though if it were incorporated into the basic rifle.

Kathy
01-19-2008, 09:32 AM
Friend Vibe:

I quote from you:

"I'm also not convinced that indexing the barrel wouldn't provide one position more accurate than all the others. So indexing it to "chase" wear, might not give to more life to that "killer" barrel after all - just more life to the barrel as a whole."

My friend, we will be discussing a target fired by B Harvey, at the RBA Indoor Nationals, before long....part of that discussion involves the issue of "barrel indexing"...

Indexing a rimfire rifle barrel has absolutely no influence on accuracy.

The ability of the bore of a rifle barrel, if that barrel is constructed to the standards I listed when I started this thread, to allow the bullet to carry an even distribution of wax, both on its driving bands, and, ahead of the bullet on the front shoulder, completely to the exit of the crown, is what causes accuracy and lack of wind sensitivity.

Your friend, Bill calfee

Vibe
01-19-2008, 10:42 AM
Indexing a rimfire rifle barrel has absolutely no influence on accuracy.

While I might accept that this may be true with "some" barrels, I'm not convinced that would be true of all, or even most. In fact I would think that some "less than" perfectly straight bores might indeed outshoot a perfectly concentric bore if indexed properly. The concept of pre-stressing comes to mind, such that a barrel that, only under the influence of gravity, becomes truly concentric and straight. This condition would only occur at one index position, and accuracy would decrease at any other position. A "perfect" barrel would be deflected, or sag to some extent, simply due to it's being a cantilever beam, but would do so uniformly in all indexes. So, while accuracy, may not be affected by indexing between positions per se, would it be "steller" in any of them? Perfect is hard to come by.
Much (but not all) of the "harmonics" dealt with in shooting are the result of the "straightening out" of this sag with the addition of pressure in the same manner as a fire hose whips around.
As for the matter of wax....Consistency is the key. But I'm not so sure that is more key than other factors. Truly consistent wax will not make up for inconsistent bullets or inadequate spin or any of a fair number of other factors.
I still maintain that it is the degree of initial yaw as the bullet leaves the muzzle that affects this effect we call "Wind sensitivity". I just cannot see the center fire crowd going to waxing their bullets. :D

plumbago
01-19-2008, 11:29 AM
Vibe is right on with his "initial yaw" of the bullet. YA, YA Now if you have a "wind sensitive" barrel ;re-cut the crown and see what happens. It's like making a spring, when you're done, you either got one or you don't..... best regards Plum