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Bnhpr
12-24-2007, 02:33 PM
I've been reading through a lot of posts and there seems to be a great variety of opinions on actions to build custom rifles from. I've always been a Remington 40x, 700 actions from my experience on a college shooting team. We also shot Winchester 52's and Anshutz rimfire. Which action is preferred by this group for custom high power?

I'm trying to rate the following:

Remington 700, 40X
Ruger 77 mk2
Winchester pre 64, post, new pre64 type
Savage
Remington 798
Mauser 98 copies
Obendorf
Husqvarna
Sako

Don Nielson
12-24-2007, 02:40 PM
None of the above. I would use a Stolle Kodiak. Don

jackie schmidt
12-24-2007, 02:59 PM
You will find that the majority of shooters who frequent this site use one of the readilly available Custom Actions as a basis for a Rifle that is to be used in some type of extreme accuracy discipline. That is what the level of accuracy demands.
Even many fine Hunting Rifles are now based on a Custom, such as The Lazerroni, Time Precision, McMillian, Dakota and others.
Of the "Factory" actions you listed, the Remington 700 and the 40X are by far the easiest to upgrade to the type of tolerances that a good Rifle Action demands. That being, machined surfaces that are all truely straight with each other,and in alignment with the bolt way. That is why they have been by far the most popular choice of shooters who want to build a custom Rifle on a Factory Action. Sure,the Remingtons are atrocious out of the box, but Gunsmiths have made good money for years "getting them right", because they are quite easy to work on.
All you have to do is look at most Custom Actions, and you will see that they are, in reality, improvements on the basic Remington design. Even the Panda and Viper, which at first glance look entirely different, share many of those basic design features.
Most of the others you listed have some sort of "quirk" that makes them too much of a hassle to fool with, that is, when compared to the Remington. But, going under the assumption that you can do anything, if time, and money allows, I suppose each of the others have some sort of following. .......jackie

ReedG
12-24-2007, 03:46 PM
If your goal is a custom high-power rifle, then start with a custom action. Making even a Remington into a "custom" action costs as much as buying a good custom.

My best advice is to find a good used rifle with the action length and set-up you desire and buy it. Replace the barrel and/or the stock and you will have a great rig. The prices on good used custom rifles seems to be ever going up, but they are mostly good values. For your money you will get a good action, a good trigger, usually a good stock -- all of which would cost double to buy new.

A used rifle with a truly "blueprinted" Remington action (some have never seen a good 'smiths lathe) is a bargain compared to building one from scratch. And will shoot with the best of 'em. A couple hundred more will usually get a nice Stolle, Viper, BAT, RFD, Borden, Nesika, Farley, wow!, the list goes on and on ... Sometimes a good used rifle can be bought for the price of a new action.

Bnhpr
12-24-2007, 04:42 PM
Wow, I had no idea there were so many custom actions.

I have 20 or so bolt action rifles, in various makes, mostly 700's, so I'll start there. I guess I need to do some more research about the custom actions.

I ordered a Remington 798 recently, and have not picked it up yet. I jumped into it, when I saw two of them at a shop of a local grumpy old gunsmith. He was rifling 30 cal barrels for them on his old Pratt and Whitney barreler. I asked him about the quality and he said they were OK. I took that as a compliment, since he says that Rem and Ruger actions are junk.

How about Barrels?

I've seen Adam's and Bennet for $80 through $400 Krieger Is there a hugh difference in quality there?

Thanks

Ben

M.D.Spencer
12-24-2007, 05:26 PM
I'm just wondering... Mark from MI:)

Hal D.
12-24-2007, 05:26 PM
I've seen Adam's and Bennet for $80 through $400 Krieger Is there a hugh difference in quality ther

Night and Day

Butch Lambert
12-24-2007, 05:30 PM
The 798 is a Mauser with Remington's name on it.
Butch

AVanGorder
12-24-2007, 06:01 PM
Is there a caliber you're set on, or are you open there also?

Call Bruno's and order a true match grade barrel. A&B barrels are great for hunting barrels, but that is where they stop.

What is for sale in the classifieds? Take a look there - I've purchased three different used BR rifles and they all shot great!

Adrian

thekubiaks
12-24-2007, 06:12 PM
1) BAT
2) Stolle

Happy Holidays :)

Bnhpr
12-24-2007, 06:19 PM
I'm just wondering... Mark from MI:)

The Gunsmith is Bill Morrison from Bradford Maine.

He's 84 years old and one of a Kind. He makes barrels out of a 20 ton pile of 4140 he purchased from The Timken Bearing Co. in the 60's. I don't even ask him to build me a barrel. He has a book full of orders that exceed his life expectancy. He started with a contract from the military to build 50 caliber machine gun barrels.

My neighbor, who collects military, has been friends with Bill for 40 years. He built Mike a 220 Swift on a Mauser action, and fitted a supertarget spot scope. It is the most accurate rifle I have ever put on the bench.

vicvanb
12-24-2007, 09:20 PM
I've been reading through a lot of posts and there seems to be a great variety of opinions on actions to build custom rifles from. I've always been a Remington 40x, 700 actions from my experience on a college shooting team. We also shot Winchester 52's and Anshutz rimfire. Which action is preferred by this group for custom high power?

I'm trying to rate the following:

Remington 700, 40X
Ruger 77 mk2
Winchester pre 64, post, new pre64 type
Savage
Remington 798
Mauser 98 copies
Obendorf
Husqvarna
Sako

Does "custom high power" mean you will compete with the rifle??

If, like many on this forum, you like accurate rifles but are not competing, think about a Pre-64 Model 70 action.

Many accurate custom rifles have been based on this action. It does not have the rigidity of some of the others but if you are not trying to squeeze the last 1/4 MOA out of your rifle for competing it doesn't make any difference.

Advantages of the old M70 include controlled round feeding, a coned breech, smooth, reliable feeding, a simple, great adjustable factory trigger, excellent 3-position safety, firing pin assembly that easily comes out of the bolt, good factory bottom metal and great looks. The M70 is an improved Mauser or Springfield.

Cycle a few rounds through a M70 that has been used a bit versus a Remington 700 and you will see the difference.

Oh, and don't fall for the hype that the newer M70 actions are as good as the older ones. The older ones ain't cheap but they are the only way to go. And buy those made before 1961 after which they declined somewhat in quality.

M.D.Spencer
12-24-2007, 10:38 PM
Now I have a reason to goto Maine!!! Mark:D

Butch Lambert
12-25-2007, 12:10 AM
Vicvanb,
Pre64 M70 receivers are at least $650 and higher. The rifles are much higher. I think that there are better choices.
Butch

Spott3r
12-25-2007, 02:51 AM
Hey Ben,

What are you planning to use the action for? :confused:

Don't be afraid to be specific.:eek:

Cos, you are dealing with elements of highly clibrated tensioner adjusted hare-triggered anally analyzed retentive highly bucolic specifically directed detailed informationally and scientifically developed seat-of-the-pants opinions...;):rolleyes:

:D:D:D

Ok, I'm just talking about me..don't know 'bout anyone else...'cept maybe that Alinwa guy...is a little crazy.
Ps. Merry Christmas.

Bnhpr
12-25-2007, 08:25 AM
Hey Ben,

What are you planning to use the action for? :confused:

Don't be afraid to be specific.:eek:

Cos, you are dealing with elements of highly clibrated tensioner adjusted hare-triggered anally analyzed retentive highly bucolic specifically directed detailed informationally and scientifically developed seat-of-the-pants opinions...;):rolleyes:

:D:D:D

Ok, I'm just talking about me..don't know 'bout anyone else...'cept maybe that Alinwa guy...is a little crazy.
Ps. Merry Christmas.


The rifle is more of a project/personal goal than for a planned use. For me, it's more about the process and, of course, fit and finish, then obtaining another rifle. What I'm saying, is that I have no planned use. I do some benchrest shooting, but I have rifles that shoot really well already. I just didn't build them myself.

I do research all suggestions. Even when people tell me I should consider an aluminum alloy reciever. :eek: I'll have to run that one by Bill

Bnhpr
12-25-2007, 08:38 AM
Now I have a reason to goto Maine!!! Mark:D

To see his shop is worth the ride up there. But don't expect a warm welcome, or even a conversation.

You have to hollar at him to get his attention. He's as deaf as a post. He has machine gun parts piled up like cord wood in the back of the shop. There were several Maxim widowmakers, 50's, m30's etc. Most i couldn't identify. He has a dump truck load of military parts In these hugh bins. And boxes and boxes of trophy's from shooting competitions he's won all over the world.

M.D.Spencer
12-25-2007, 01:10 PM
It's still amazing to me to find these guys out there!!

Spott3r
12-25-2007, 01:22 PM
The 700 would be an excellent place to start.

But if you feel your skill is not there yet then I would start with a 98 then go str8 to the 700's.

V24's are an excellent 98 off the bat.

Have fun!

:D:D:D

vicvanb
12-25-2007, 02:48 PM
Vicvanb,
Pre64 M70 receivers are at least $650 and higher. The rifles are much higher. I think that there are better choices.
Butch

I just sold a complete action from a 30-06 for $550. There's a complete rifle (30-06) on GUNSAMERICA today for $700.

"You pays your money and you takes your choice."

vicvanb
12-25-2007, 02:53 PM
The rifle is more of a project/personal goal than for a planned use. For me, it's more about the process and, of course, fit and finish, then obtaining another rifle. What I'm saying, is that I have no planned use. I do some benchrest shooting, but I have rifles that shoot really well already. I just didn't build them myself.

I do research all suggestions. Even when people tell me I should consider an aluminum alloy reciever. :eek: I'll have to run that one by Bill

Don't know about today but a few years ago the action preferred --BY FAR--by the top custom gun makers of fine sporting rifles was the Pre-64 M70.

Bnhpr
12-25-2007, 03:03 PM
The 700 would be an excellent place to start.

But if you feel your skill is not there yet then I would start with a 98 then go str8 to the 700's.

V24's are an excellent 98 off the bat.

Have fun!

:D:D:D

I have several 700's I can cannibalize, and I have a 798 ordered.

I have two Adam's and Bennet 308/10 CM blanks, I can practice with. I bought a 308 match finish reamer.

I have 20 years experience on a lathe, so I'm sure I'll be able to figure it out.

Butch Lambert
12-25-2007, 04:42 PM
vicvanb,
That site is difficult to navigate. I didn't have any luck finding what you are talking about. Let me know when you have another available for $550. It is funny that the custom builders like the pre 64 and the 98 Mausers, but almost all admit that the Rem Mod 30 is a superior quality rifle.
Butch

gunmaker
12-25-2007, 07:26 PM
It's kind of hard to figure out what kind of rifle you're trying to build. If you're looking to learn something then starting with a MILITARY Mauser of higher quality would be a great place to start. If you base your opinion of Mausers on the quality of the 798 you get it will leave a bad taste in your mouth 4 ever. As mentioned above, the VZ-24 is a good action to build a fine rifle on. There are many things to be done to transform a military 98 into a fine sporting rifle. When these things are done well the finished product is a much finer grade of rifle than what you would get starting with anything else. Even the pre 64 M70. When these are done poorly then you have something you can't sell for more than $150 at the local gun show. The Winchester pre 64 70 is ok, it's just not something you are going to learn much from. It does have a great trigger and safety. But, it's not machined anywhere as well as a higher grade military Mauser. It was never really an improved Mauser, it was designed to be made cheaper than the very difficult to machine Mauser 98. Even though I've made a living working on Pre-64m70 style receivers for years, I still personally prefer a well done Mauser. So does Holland and Holland, Purdey and other top makers and collectors around the world.

Here's a pic of a vz-24 I built a few years ago.
gunmaker
http://members.sdplains.com/chico/luis270016.jpg

DannyH
12-25-2007, 08:30 PM
Perfect reply Gunmaker

Butch Lambert
12-25-2007, 11:02 PM
For the people that don't know him, Gunmaker is one of our better custom gunmakers in the USA. He can do all the metal work and the wood also. He built his own stock duplicator and a mired of other tools. He just finished a half octagon-half round barrel for me. He has also made me a custom hinged floorplate for a mini-Mauser. I believe that Gunmaker is CNC equiped also.
Butch

vicvanb
12-25-2007, 11:42 PM
It's kind of hard to figure out what kind of rifle you're trying to build. If you're looking to learn something then starting with a MILITARY Mauser of higher quality would be a great place to start. If you base your opinion of Mausers on the quality of the 798 you get it will leave a bad taste in your mouth 4 ever. As mentioned above, the VZ-24 is a good action to build a fine rifle on. There are many things to be done to transform a military 98 into a fine sporting rifle. When these things are done well the finished product is a much finer grade of rifle than what you would get starting with anything else. Even the pre 64 M70. When these are done poorly then you have something you can't sell for more than $150 at the local gun show. The Winchester pre 64 70 is ok, it's just not something you are going to learn much from. It does have a great trigger and safety. But, it's not machined anywhere as well as a higher grade military Mauser. It was never really an improved Mauser, it was designed to be made cheaper than the very difficult to machine Mauser 98. Even though I've made a living working on Pre-64m70 style receivers for years, I still personally prefer a well done Mauser. So does Holland and Holland, Purdey and other top makers and collectors around the world.

Here's a pic of a vz-24 I built a few years ago.
gunmaker
http://members.sdplains.com/chico/luis270016.jpg

I respect your point of view, but for those of us who can't afford a Holland and Holland or a Purdey... maybe the M70 is a better choice.

Not sure what you mean by not learning much from the M70.

It always was puzzling to me why someone would start with a military Mauser and have to replace the bottom metal, the safety, the trigger, the bolt handle, etc. when you can go with a M70 that already had all that stuff done at Winchester. And when you're done you still don't have a coned breech or a rifle that you can drop one round into the chamber and close the bolt over it.

Didn't a lot of German soldiers jam the Mausers for lack of a coned breech?

Butch Lambert
12-26-2007, 12:05 AM
vicvanb,
I just bought a beautiful Persian 98 Mauser barreled action for $179. I bought a 1909 Argentine Mauser hinged bottom metal from EvilBay for $100, and a Timney trigger for $50. I believe Jim Kobe sells safety conversions for $75. The machine work on the Persian is much better than a Pre64 mod. 70. The metal work on a model 70 cost just the same or more than the Mauser to achieve the same result. Don't get me wrong, I like the mod70. Just don't sell the Mausers short.
Butch

gunmaker
12-26-2007, 02:00 AM
Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to pick any fights here. The reason for this thread was to learn something about action differences. Based on my experience with the Mauser 98 and M70pre64 style receivers I'm just pointing out the facts. I've got some of both in my safe.
Not sure what you mean by not learning much from the M70.
Most of the customizing work has already been done at the factory.

It always was puzzling to me why someone would start with a military Mauser and have to replace the bottom metal, the safety, the trigger, the bolt handle, etc.
As an introductory project you learn much more. You have to innovate and create some features that weren't there to start with. That's why the 98 is the action of choice for gunsmithing schools.

And when you're done you still don't have a coned breech or a rifle that you can drop one round into the chamber and close the bolt over it. Didn't a lot of German soldiers jam the Mausers for lack of a coned breech?
The coned breech has very little to do with the feeding IMHO. If it's not pointed into the chamber by the time the bullet gets to the back of the barrel then it isn't feeding properly anyway. Just throwing one into the barrel and single feeding the claw extractor over is another thing you learn to do with a Mauser. I've never broken an extractor yet. As far as feeding from the magazine to the chamber there are none smoother than a 98 done right.

IMHO
If you want to learn how to BUILD a "precision" rifle with a glass stock then build a 700 or Savage and do the tricks you see done very well around this forum.

If you want to build a very nice sporter with a classy wood stock then a pre64m70 is a QUICK way to get there.

If you want to learn how H&H and Purdey build bolt guns then the only choice is a military contract Mauser 98 that was machined in Germany for another country. The machine work on some of these contract receivers is truly world class. The Belgian made ones have inferior machine work. The Mauser 98 can be the cornerstone for a world class sporting rifle valuable for generations to come.

If you want to get it done as quick as possible with the most accurate results then start with something like a Borden custom action.

They're all good choices. Just different.
gunmaker

Jon Leary
12-26-2007, 04:00 AM
If you look up inside a 98 mauser you will see a coned breech, it just isn;t part of the barrell as in the M-70 and springfield. As far as the bottom metal it can be made to look pretty good with a little work. Jon

Bnhpr
12-26-2007, 10:18 AM
Great info guys. It always amazes me how the Mauser has remained unchanged for 109 years. It, and the mod 70, pre 64 is still the benchmark in your discussions above, against which all other actions are judged.

Gunmaker, Handsome piece you made there, very impressive.

I don't have any Obendorf Mausers lying around, or pre-64's. But I could probably procure one. I have some friends in the right circles to get some.

To perfect my machine tool technique. I plan on reworking some actions I have already. I have a 700 BDL that shoots like a shotgun. I have a Ruger KM77VT in 25-06 that shoots like crap (what a ripoff that was). I have a 700 classic grade that I could use,

Dave Short
12-26-2007, 11:20 AM
If you don't want to buy a custom action, then I suggest building around a..................TRIGGER!.....................If you can't put an excellent (jewell) trigger in it, you will be "stuck in low gear" for your entire relationship with the rifle.......kind of like putting a cast on your "good" leg, even though it ain't broken.

Oh, and with that said, I'd start with a Remington.........If I couldn't/didn't want to use a custom action.

-Dave-:)

jackie schmidt
12-26-2007, 11:35 AM
When shooters ask me what chambering I would build for a custom Rifle that will see bench time,as well as woods time, I say, "one that Lapua makes brass for".
The same can be said for components like triggers. Building a $3000 Rifle with a great Custom barrel, properly 'smithed, and completely functional can be a heartbreak when you are among your buddies at the range if you can't get a decent trigger.
Of course, companies have been making pretty decent triggers for Mausers since the '50's. By decent, I mean you can squeeze off a round without upsetting the Rifle.
I have checked the trueness of a couple of military Mausers in my life, and you would be surprised just how well they were machined. Of course, all of that bolt flop makes some of it a moot point, but they are certainly not pieces of junk.
The absolute worst action I have seen to date was a Winchester I bought a few years back, (a cayote, new in the box), with the thought of building a 25 WSSM. I removed the barrel, and the threads looked like they had been machined with a cold chisel. I tuned a mandrel to fit the bolt way, and placed it up on it to see how bad other things were. The face ran out .004, (that is a LOT), it didn't even look like it was machined. The threads ran out with the bolt way so bad, that I decided to just lay it aside and forget about it. I ended up selling the whole thing for about 1/2 what I gave for it. Total piece of junk........jackie

vicvanb
12-26-2007, 12:57 PM
It's kind of hard to figure out what kind of rifle you're trying to build. If you're looking to learn something then starting with a MILITARY Mauser of higher quality would be a great place to start. If you base your opinion of Mausers on the quality of the 798 you get it will leave a bad taste in your mouth 4 ever. As mentioned above, the VZ-24 is a good action to build a fine rifle on. There are many things to be done to transform a military 98 into a fine sporting rifle. When these things are done well the finished product is a much finer grade of rifle than what you would get starting with anything else. Even the pre 64 M70. When these are done poorly then you have something you can't sell for more than $150 at the local gun show. The Winchester pre 64 70 is ok, it's just not something you are going to learn much from. It does have a great trigger and safety. But, it's not machined anywhere as well as a higher grade military Mauser. It was never really an improved Mauser, it was designed to be made cheaper than the very difficult to machine Mauser 98. Even though I've made a living working on Pre-64m70 style receivers for years, I still personally prefer a well done Mauser. So does Holland and Holland, Purdey and other top makers and collectors around the world.

Here's a pic of a vz-24 I built a few years ago.
gunmaker
http://members.sdplains.com/chico/luis270016.jpg

It may have something to do with Holland&Holland and Purdey believing that nothing made in the USA could possibly meet their standards??

gunmaker
12-26-2007, 01:02 PM
As far as the bottom metal it can be made to look pretty good with a little work. Jon

Bingo Jon! I couldn't agree more.

Pic of military Mauser floormetal with a little work done to it.
http://members.sdplains.com/chico/09ARGFLOOR014.jpg

Big Al
12-26-2007, 01:24 PM
Just curious, but what does it cost to have a trigger guard/ bottom metal done up like that from a military Mauser?

gunmaker
12-26-2007, 01:49 PM
Al
Please contact me through email or PM. The condition of military floormetal guards varies greatly and I have no flat rate because of this. The one in the pic above was an unissued floormetal in perfect condition. The cost of polishing everything under the wood was more than the visible work.
gunmaker
contact infohttp://members.sdplains.com/chico/sign.jpg

Bnhpr
12-26-2007, 02:46 PM
If you don't want to buy a custom action, then I suggest building around a..................TRIGGER!.....................If you can't put an excellent (jewell) trigger in it, you will be "stuck in low gear" for your entire relationship with the rifle.......kind of like putting a cast on your "good" leg, even though it ain't broken.

Oh, and with that said, I'd start with a Remington.........If I couldn't/didn't want to use a custom action.

-Dave-:)

I love a nice trigger. I think the 40-x trigger and Anshutz are the best I've used.

What do you recommend for a 98? 700?

vicvanb
12-26-2007, 06:32 PM
It's kind of hard to figure out what kind of rifle you're trying to build. If you're looking to learn something then starting with a MILITARY Mauser of higher quality would be a great place to start. If you base your opinion of Mausers on the quality of the 798 you get it will leave a bad taste in your mouth 4 ever. As mentioned above, the VZ-24 is a good action to build a fine rifle on. There are many things to be done to transform a military 98 into a fine sporting rifle. When these things are done well the finished product is a much finer grade of rifle than what you would get starting with anything else. Even the pre 64 M70. When these are done poorly then you have something you can't sell for more than $150 at the local gun show. The Winchester pre 64 70 is ok, it's just not something you are going to learn much from. It does have a great trigger and safety. But, it's not machined anywhere as well as a higher grade military Mauser. It was never really an improved Mauser, it was designed to be made cheaper than the very difficult to machine Mauser 98. Even though I've made a living working on Pre-64m70 style receivers for years, I still personally prefer a well done Mauser. So does Holland and Holland, Purdey and other top makers and collectors around the world.

Here's a pic of a vz-24 I built a few years ago.
gunmaker
http://members.sdplains.com/chico/luis270016.jpg

Sorry to be so contrary, but the "Mausers were better machined than M70s" argument is apples vs. oranges. About 80% of Pre-64 M70s were made after 1950. Demand was high and quality declined somewhat in the 1950s but never to the point where workmanship was poor. I think the Pre-war M70 actions were machined as well as the Mausers--and that is the fair comparison, not Pre-war Mausers vs. post war M70s.

It's all pretty academic anyway don't you think? Sure, a guy who just needs to be to work on time can use a Rollex watch, but the added quality is unimportant to the task at hand.

vicvanb
12-26-2007, 06:40 PM
When shooters ask me what chambering I would build for a custom Rifle that will see bench time,as well as woods time, I say, "one that Lapua makes brass for".
The same can be said for components like triggers. Building a $3000 Rifle with a great Custom barrel, properly 'smithed, and completely functional can be a heartbreak when you are among your buddies at the range if you can't get a decent trigger.
Of course, companies have been making pretty decent triggers for Mausers since the '50's. By decent, I mean you can squeeze off a round without upsetting the Rifle.
I have checked the trueness of a couple of military Mausers in my life, and you would be surprised just how well they were machined. Of course, all of that bolt flop makes some of it a moot point, but they are certainly not pieces of junk.
The absolute worst action I have seen to date was a Winchester I bought a few years back, (a cayote, new in the box), with the thought of building a 25 WSSM. I removed the barrel, and the threads looked like they had been machined with a cold chisel. I tuned a mandrel to fit the bolt way, and placed it up on it to see how bad other things were. The face ran out .004, (that is a LOT), it didn't even look like it was machined. The threads ran out with the bolt way so bad, that I decided to just lay it aside and forget about it. I ended up selling the whole thing for about 1/2 what I gave for it. Total piece of junk........jackie

Jackie,

We all know that the Post-64 M70s had problems--just look at them. This discussion has been about Pre-64s.

Unlike today's rifles, the Pre-64 M70s had to pass a rigorous inspection and were all test fired at the factory prior to 1962. They all functioned well or they were not shipped. They all fed well and bolt handles never came off out-of-the-box rifles--like several M700s I have seen!

gunmaker
12-26-2007, 07:44 PM
vicvanb
Why don't you post a picture of your work for all to enjoy.
gunmaker

Spott3r
12-27-2007, 12:37 PM
Hey Bnhpr,

Sell the Ruger and then look at one of these...http://www.snipercentral.com/spstactical.htm
Note: new trigger but Jewel is better. And the price is awesome.


vicvanb equal to Mod70 :rolleyes: vicvanb not equal to Mauser ;)


Come one vic lets see a pic, paaalllleeeeeeaaassssee :o

Have fun!

:D:D:D

dennisinaz
12-27-2007, 12:48 PM
Vicvanb,
Pre64 M70 receivers are at least $650 and higher. The rifles are much higher. I think that there are better choices.
Butch



HUH???

I've never paid more than $600 for an entire rifle! The last one was a 300 H&H that came with a scope (Leupold) and a CASE of ammo.

I have bought a half-dozen '06s that were under $500. I think they are nice slick actions, but you won't see any winning any matches these days;)

Butch Lambert
12-27-2007, 02:47 PM
Dennis,
Let me know when you want to sell your pre64 Mod 70s and also where these are located for that money. Ain't none in Texas.
Butch

henrya
12-27-2007, 03:01 PM
I have 5 big ones waiting for one of those pre64 M70s.

;)

Butch Lambert
12-27-2007, 03:10 PM
Henry,
I'm in front of you in line and I will bump you $100.
Butch

Bnhpr
12-27-2007, 04:11 PM
Hey Bnhpr,

Sell the Ruger and then look at one of these...http://www.snipercentral.com/spstactical.htm
Note: new trigger but Jewel is better. And the price is awesome.


vicvanb equal to Mod70 :rolleyes: vicvanb not equal to Mauser ;)


Come one vic lets see a pic, paaalllleeeeeeaaassssee :o

Have fun!

:D:D:D


I picked up 3 of these in .308, special run from Remington. Looks like the same barrel.

They were $650 out the door from Gander mountain in Houston.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/XR-100_rangemaster.asp

I put a 6.5-20 monarch on 2 of them, and a leupold 6.5-20 vx3 on 1 of them. They all three shot a single ragged hole group with 168 smk's and 44 grains varget.

Big Al
12-28-2007, 11:11 AM
vicvanb,
That site is difficult to navigate. I didn't have any luck finding what you are talking about. Let me know when you have another available for $550. It is funny that the custom builders like the pre 64 and the 98 Mausers, but almost all admit that the Rem Mod 30 is a superior quality rifle.
Butch

I totally agree about the Model 30 as being at the top, but what do you do for bottom metal, you sure have to do something with it as that stamp steel crap is not going to appeal to anyone. No better safety has ever been put on a rifle, period end of story!

I think if the much beloved Mike Walker would have insisted on a good set of bottom metal, Remington would have thrown dirt in WINCHESTER's face, but that's not the reason Remington put out the Model 30 and Mr. Walker did the mods. They were out to unload a bunch of war leftovers. These are of course the later Mod 30 under Mr. Walker's watchful eye.

Why no one has mentioned the fact that the Mausers handle gas better than the, in your face Model 70 pre-64 is a mystery to me?

I love the old Model 70's as much as anybody, but for a rifle that is going to be used for the, mite eat me kind of hunting, give me a tricked out Mauser 98 every time.

For punching paper, forget the above three, you've just got to be kidding yourself. Yes in granddad's day they were competitive, but that was then, this is now.

For the ain't going to eat you kind of hunting, " The Great Pumpkin" has it right on the money.:D

Butch Lambert
12-28-2007, 12:55 PM
Stephen, unfortunetly, quality doesn't always dictate price. Lots of overpriced junk out there. Gunmaker is much better qualified to make a statement on quality of the Mauser against the Mod 70. He has been involved with several hundred of both and has photos if you like. You can pay $5000 for some original Mauser receivers, not because they are better than the $100 Mausers, just more rare and desirable.
Butch

Butch Lambert
12-28-2007, 01:19 PM
Stephen,
What is wrong with shooting a fine custom rifle. I don't have alot of them, but they have all been hunted with except my 458Lott. It is too much rifle for me.
Butch

Butch Lambert
12-28-2007, 02:54 PM
I have not heard of that shotgun, but I use my Parker.
Butch

vicvanb
12-28-2007, 03:17 PM
Vic
What do call cheap about pre-64 Win Model 70's. The gun is one of the most sought after rifles on the market. You made claims that the Model 98 Mauser is a better made gun, I own both. I'll take my pre-64 Model 70 and my 1980's Model 70's compared to a Mauser anyday. Model 70 also has better calibers. By the way if the Mausers were so superbly made why was I able to buy 3 of them for $50 a piece. I bought them to work on. Not admire.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

If this was for me (Vic) you have the wrong guy! I didn't say anything you mentioned!

vicvanb
12-28-2007, 11:11 PM
Hey, no problem. After a while it all runs together. And at my age I can't remember my last post let alone what was on another thread!

Bill Leeper
12-29-2007, 12:34 AM
I've built quite few rifles on quite a few different actions and can only say some are more appropriate than others for different tasks. A properly built Mauser 98 based rifle (I would include commercial Mauser actions here too) is unbeatable as a serious field rifle. They are simple and well designed. The parts are robust and well thought out. A good Mauser will feed, fire, extract and eject every time. In the unlikely event something breaks, they can be stripped and repaired with a minimum of tools. You can replace the firing pin on your Mauser in the field with no tools. For field use, I even like the military two stage trigger just fine. Mine are set up so the second stage is crisp and breaks at 3lb with minimal overtravel. Just fine for hunting and it's unlikely to ever fail for any reason.
For an accuracy rifle, the Mauser can make a pretty good varminter but it just isn't really the choice for a match rifle. The Pre-64 M70 can work quite well within limitations. I have made some fairly good shooting rifles based on pre-war actions but I don't know that I could make a 1/4 minute rifle. I have not tried to build a pre-war in 6PPC but I have built some 308s. The best was a 1/2 minute rifle on it's best days. In 6.5x55 the same rifle is a 5/8 moa performer at 300 meters. 10 shot groups are usually just under 2". This action is as perfect as I can make it. The threads have been recut. The locking lug seats machined and the receiver faced. The bolt has been faced and the locking lugs trued. I have retro-fitted "bumps" to take the slop out of the rear. By the way, when I say a rifle is a 1/2 minute rifle, it's a REAL 1/2 minute rifle. Not one of those which shoots a 1/2" group anytime the full moon falls on a Tuesday.
A 1965 model (the lowest of the low!) in 6BR is an honest 3/8 moa rifle. 10 shot groups at 300 meters will be right around an inch to an inch and a quarter. This likely has less to do with the action and more to do with the fact that a 6 BR is easier to shoot.
Another M70 push feed is in 308 and will also shoot 3/8. However, a 308 is just plain harder to shoot well; at least for me. Anyone who has shot a full 308 in hunter class will know how easy it is to suddenly shoot an eight for no apparent reason. This rifle is like that. I have shot numerous sub-.3 groups (5 shot)and followed them up with one of .7". Maybe it's just me.
My point is that Winchester M70s of any vintage are capable actions and can be pretty darn good but they are not accuracy actions; not even with considerable modification.
The Remington 700, like it or not, works better. A well built 700 in the proper configuration can be a 1/4 minute rifle. If things go well, it can be even better. This goes doubly for the 40X. It is still possible to build a rifle on a 40X action and get it to shoot under .2. Not in stock condition, perhaps, but with typical truing and tuning it can. This if it is barreled in a suitable caliber, or course. I have a 40X based rifle I built strictly for 300 meter "F" class. This one is a sleeved (stainless sleeve) 40XBR action with a home made bolt. It is barreled with an old Clyde Hart barrel (14 twist) chambered in 308. I have fired 5-5 shot groups at 100 yds and agg'd right at 1/4" with Sierra bullets (very nice conditions, mind you). It is glued into the stock and is really kind of a 1980 style cruiserweight rifle (about 16.5 pounds). I'm quite sure I could get this one to agg around .2 with better bullets and a little effort.
I think the Savage single shot actions have the potential to work nearly as well, maybe just as well, as the 40X actions but in either case, modern custom actions will work much more easily and probably better. This wasn't always the case.
Back in the Seventies custom actions were not always any better than commercial ones. Sometimes they weren't as good. The worst action I ever had in my hands was a custom action. A Shilen DGA, this thing was so crooked, it was impossible to barrel. With the barrel screwed in to contact the receiver, I could stick a .006" feeler guage between the barrel and receiver on one side. To make matters worse, the recoil lug was .0007" thicker on one side. No 40X was this bad! Today's customs are another matter. Nobody dares to make a crooked action and there are more good actions available than ever before. Some, like the Stolles, Stillers, Bats, Farleys and so on, are well known to BR shooters. Some others like the Barnard (New Zealand) and RPA (Great Britain), are not so well known but are of equal quality. The only reason to use a Remington or other commercial action is to say you could and that's not a real good reason!
I still use commercial actions and even reworked military actions but this is more an indication of my obstinance than it is the suitability of these actions. Although I have high hopes for my rebuilt CIL950T, I would have undoubtedly been better off with the Barnard I'm using for a customer's rifle. Regards, Bill.

Bnhpr
12-29-2007, 08:52 AM
I've built quite few rifles on quite a few different actions and can only say some are more appropriate than others for different tasks. A properly built Mauser 98 based rifle (I would include commercial Mauser actions here too) is unbeatable as a serious field rifle. They are simple and well designed. The parts are robust and well thought out. A good Mauser will feed, fire, extract and eject every time. In the unlikely event something breaks, they can be stripped and repaired with a minimum of tools. You can replace the firing pin on your Mauser in the field with no tools. For field use, I even like the military two stage trigger just fine. Mine are set up so the second stage is crisp and breaks at 3lb with minimal overtravel. Just fine for hunting and it's unlikely to ever fail for any reason.
For an accuracy rifle, the Mauser can make a pretty good varminter but it just isn't really the choice for a match rifle. The Pre-64 M70 can work quite well within limitations. I have made some fairly good shooting rifles based on pre-war actions but I don't know that I could make a 1/4 minute rifle. I have not tried to build a pre-war in 6PPC but I have built some 308s. The best was a 1/2 minute rifle on it's best days. In 6.5x55 the same rifle is a 5/8 moa performer at 300 meters. 10 shot groups are usually just under 2". This action is as perfect as I can make it. The threads have been recut. The locking lug seats machined and the receiver faced. The bolt has been faced and the locking lugs trued. I have retro-fitted "bumps" to take the slop out of the rear. By the way, when I say a rifle is a 1/2 minute rifle, it's a REAL 1/2 minute rifle. Not one of those which shoots a 1/2" group anytime the full moon falls on a Tuesday.
A 1965 model (the lowest of the low!) in 6BR is an honest 3/8 moa rifle. 10 shot groups at 300 meters will be right around an inch to an inch and a quarter. This likely has less to do with the action and more to do with the fact that a 6 BR is easier to shoot.
Another M70 push feed is in 308 and will also shoot 3/8. However, a 308 is just plain harder to shoot well; at least for me. Anyone who has shot a full 308 in hunter class will know how easy it is to suddenly shoot an eight for no apparent reason. This rifle is like that. I have shot numerous sub-.3 groups (5 shot)and followed them up with one of .7". Maybe it's just me.
My point is that Winchester M70s of any vintage are capable actions and can be pretty darn good but they are not accuracy actions; not even with considerable modification.
The Remington 700, like it or not, works better. A well built 700 in the proper configuration can be a 1/4 minute rifle. If things go well, it can be even better. This goes doubly for the 40X. It is still possible to build a rifle on a 40X action and get it to shoot under .2. Not in stock condition, perhaps, but with typical truing and tuning it can. This if it is barreled in a suitable caliber, or course. I have a 40X based rifle I built strictly for 300 meter "F" class. This one is a sleeved (stainless sleeve) 40XBR action with a home made bolt. It is barreled with an old Clyde Hart barrel (14 twist) chambered in 308. I have fired 5-5 shot groups at 100 yds and agg'd right at 1/4" with Sierra bullets (very nice conditions, mind you). It is glued into the stock and is really kind of a 1980 style cruiserweight rifle (about 16.5 pounds). I'm quite sure I could get this one to agg around .2 with better bullets and a little effort.
I think the Savage single shot actions have the potential to work nearly as well, maybe just as well, as the 40X actions but in either case, modern custom actions will work much more easily and probably better. This wasn't always the case.
Back in the Seventies custom actions were not always any better than commercial ones. Sometimes they weren't as good. The worst action I ever had in my hands was a custom action. A Shilen DGA, this thing was so crooked, it was impossible to barrel. With the barrel screwed in to contact the receiver, I could stick a .006" feeler guage between the barrel and receiver on one side. To make matters worse, the recoil lug was .0007" thicker on one side. No 40X was this bad! Today's customs are another matter. Nobody dares to make a crooked action and there are more good actions available than ever before. Some, like the Stolles, Stillers, Bats, Farleys and so on, are well known to BR shooters. Some others like the Barnard (New Zealand) and RPA (Great Britain), are not so well known but are of equal quality. The only reason to use a Remington or other commercial action is to say you could and that's not a real good reason!
I still use commercial actions and even reworked military actions but this is more an indication of my obstinance than it is the suitability of these actions. Although I have high hopes for my rebuilt CIL950T, I would have undoubtedly been better off with the Barnard I'm using for a customer's rifle. Regards, Bill.

Very well explained, and thank you for taking the time to compose such a well written history of your experience.

Ben

Tesla
12-29-2007, 08:55 AM
vicvanb,
I just bought a beautiful Persian 98 Mauser barreled action for $179. I bought a 1909 Argentine Mauser hinged bottom metal from EvilBay for $100, and a Timney trigger for $50. I believe Jim Kobe sells safety conversions for $75. The machine work on the Persian is much better than a Pre64 mod. 70. The metal work on a model 70 cost just the same or more than the Mauser to achieve the same result. Don't get me wrong, I like the mod70. Just don't sell the Mausers short.
Butch

Where did you find the Persian Mauser?

Butch Lambert
12-29-2007, 11:09 AM
Samco Global Trading. I have heard that they have gone up. Mine looks almost brand new.
Butch

Tesla
12-29-2007, 01:30 PM
Thank you!

gunmaker
12-30-2007, 05:15 PM
Vic
What do call cheap about pre-64 Win Model 70's. The gun is one of the most sought after rifles on the market. You made claims that the Model 98 Mauser is a better made gun, I own both. I'll take my pre-64 Model 70 and my 1980's Model 70's compared to a Mauser anyday. Model 70 also has better calibers. By the way if the Mausers were so superbly made why was I able to buy 3 of them for $50 a piece. I bought them to work on. Not admire.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Hey Mr Perry, Let's see some pics of your work as well. It's not real hard to make a Mauser look better than a M70. I guess I get a little tired of people slamming $50 mausers just because they can't do high quality work in them. I show up on this forum to learn something I don't know much about from people that DO. Maybe others should do the same.
gunmaker

Butch Lambert
12-30-2007, 05:37 PM
James,
I think that you found another keyboard gunsmith.
Butch

vicvanb
12-30-2007, 10:09 PM
vicvanb
Why don't you post a picture of your work for all to enjoy.
gunmaker

Gunmaker,

What is your point--that only guys who are first-class gunsmiths can evaluate actions? Some of us have 40 or 50 years of experience buying, selling, owning, inspecting, and shooting rifles. No we don't build them--we'll leave that to you--but we know quality form and function when we see it. It's like literature or music critics: most have not published best sellers or composed symphonys but they know what is good and what is not.

And yes, I know this is the Gunsmith's Corner, but a bunch of guys who comment here are not gunsmiths. If you want to hear only from other gunmakers, just screen out those of us not up to your standards but don't disrespect our knowledge and contributions.

Spott3r
12-30-2007, 11:13 PM
Vic,

We all agree that the Mauser, Win70 and Rem700 have a place.
But your opinions seem to carry some more darker, more personal meaning.
Did you get run over by a Water Buffalo? Can you never forgive German technology. If you share you might find that 60 years of Gun noodling development may be for something.

If you continue your angst we will never appreciate your sharing.

Either way have fun.

:o:)

Bnhpr
12-31-2007, 09:19 AM
Tough crowd on this forum.

Remember if both of us always agree, one of us is not thinking.

Ben

Spott3r
12-31-2007, 11:35 AM
Good point! :eek:

vicvanb
12-31-2007, 01:11 PM
Spott,

"...darker, more personal meaning."

"...run over by a Water Buffalo."

"...forgive German technology."

"...angst."

Where do you get this stuff? Seems a little bit over the top. I'm just an old guy who knows what he likes in rifle actions. A psychologist I am not.

Bnhpr
12-31-2007, 01:15 PM
Dunno, but I might use a few of those.

If you remember that then you'll never forget it.

Spott3r
12-31-2007, 02:43 PM
Sorry for the over obsessiveness.

I guess I enjoy hearing People discuss their stories.

Sometimes they are better than fiction. Maybe Hemingway had a method.
Fiction however does not compare.

I guess what I am really asking is why do you like the Win70 action so much?

:)

Bill Leeper
12-31-2007, 03:54 PM
I'm not Vic but I have a bit of experience with the M70 along with others. What the M70 has (at least the pre-64 and, especially, the pre-war models) are some features which are perceived as being improvements and other features which are just that; features.
The first thing the M70 has going for it is that it was conceived and built as a sporter. It was made to be attractive in contour and was given a low, swept back bolt handle which was tucked out of the way yet still readily accessible.
The second thing it had going for it was the trigger. This was one of the first of the over riding sear type triggers. It was adjustable for weight of pull and overtravel. To me, the trigger becomes one of those perceived improvements. As I said before, I like a well set up two stage trigger just fine. The model 70 trigger is a good one though and is relatively easy to set up. I have M70's with triggers set under 2 pounds on which you can slam the bolt or bounce the rifle on the floor (something I seldom do with a loaded rifle, by the way) without having them fire accidentally.
Another feature which is seen as being an improvement is the change in the ejector location and the resulting change in the bolt head. In the Mauser, the ejector blade is incorporated into the boltstop assembly and the left locking lug is slotted to allow the ejector blade to pass through it. The Model 70 moves the ejector down to the lower left of the receiver bridge. The bolt is slotted through the face beneath the lug which leaves the left lug solid. The advantage? Obviously a solid lug is likely to be stronger than a slotted one. The disadvantage? The ejector on the mauser is actuated by a robust and lightly stress leaf spring. In addition it is in a relatively clean area and unlikely to accumulate crud. The M70 is actuated by a tiny coil spring and occasionally gums up with debris. So, it's a tradeoff; the slightly more reliable Mauser extractor is trade for the slightly greater strength of the M70 solid lug.
The bolt stop of the M70 is moved to a position below the stock line. This leaves a nice uncluttered side on the receiver where the mauser has the visible, boxy looking bolt stop/ejector on the left rear of the receiver. This is another area where the M70 "improvement" is only perceived. It is less sure than the Mauser. Because it disengages by being pressed down, it is possible for it to be pushed down by accident and the bolt lost (it has happened folks!). The Mauser is, again, more robust. The actuating spring is more than needed. The Model 70 may win some appearance points from those who like the uncluttered receiver look but I think the Mauser stop is a classic example of form following function and still looking good doing it.
The Model 70 trigger guard and floorplate are nice. Especially the pre-war ones. Nicely shaped guard and a floorplate with just enough metal. The floorplate latch is simplicity itself and works beautifully.
The model 70 coned breech is a stupid feature copied from the Springfield. It does nothing for safety of feeding. It's a poor feature which Winchester continued with. The Montana Rifle Company even perpetuated the coned breech in their modern action. The only difference was the cone was cast into the receiver rather than being cut on the barrel.
In the event of a case failure the cone does a great job of funneling gas and debris directly into the left locking lug raceway which directs it to the shooter's face. The Mauser's inner barrel seat (c-ring) effectively blocks off the raceway from the open bottom of the bolt face. Any gas which does head down the raceway is blocked by the bolt stop and escapes via the thumb notch.
It can be seen that the M70 has some truly positive features (appearance, trigger, bolt handle) and some features which are positive or negative depending on your viewpoint (ejector and bolt stop). It also has one which is purely negative; the coned breech.
Taken as a whole, the Model 70 was the best commercial bolt action sporting rifle ever made in the United States. It may well have been the best commercial bolt action sporting rifle in the world. There are plenty of good reasons to like the M70 but I still think, as a field rifle action, the Mauser has the edge. Ever since the introduction of the Remington 722, neither has been a truly viable accuracy action though. Regards, Bill.

vicvanb
01-01-2008, 02:26 PM
Bill,

Thank you for the great analysis. The only thing we might quibble about is the coned breech and gas handling of M70s. M70s have a gas vent hole in the side of the front ring. Yes, gas does come back along the left side of the bolt. Fortunately, this is a very rare occurrence. I've been shooting M70s since 1951 and it has yet to happen to me. I'm hoping it never will. This negative alone has not detracted from the M70's appeal and marketability since it came out in 1936! I guess if it was a serious problem actions would have been modified or discontinued.

I wasn't there to see it but I have read that military Mausers jammed in battle for lack of a coned breech. True?

Bill Leeper
01-02-2008, 01:15 AM
I doubt it. I have never seen such an occurence. It is possible Mausers jammed if the cartridge fed in ahead of the extractor and the shooter panicked. Unaltered Mauser extractors dont jump over the rim very well.
The model 70 does have a gas vent hole but it's insufficient in the case of a serious brass failure. The model 70 does do a great job of venting the gas directly into the shooter's face. New model 70 CRF actions addressed this by adding the little gas block which was retained by the extractor collar. While the effectiveness of this little block is questionable, it was something. I retrofit this to pre-64 actions on my own rifles. The lack of gas handling ability was recognized early on and there was an article in the American Rifleman on modifying the bolt sleeve to improve shooter protection.
This is only a big deal in the event of a major failure. More than just a leaky primer. I shoot a couple of pre-war actions and just count on no brass failures! Regards, Bill.

gunmaker
01-02-2008, 01:39 AM
Gunmaker,

What is your point--that only guys who are first-class gunsmiths can evaluate actions?

I just get a little tired of reading numerous posts about how equal or better the pre64-70 oops... now it's the prewar70 verses the 98Mauser from someone who apparently (this is my assumption) has never actually done a lot of work to BOTH. It gets into one of those facts verses feelings debates. We all know how useful feelings are. If you had a bunch of experience with the Mauser and not just thought you remember reading that the Germans had a jamming problem maybe your posts would have more.... what's the word??? gravitasse.

Maybe you should have started your posting on this thread that you have spent many years shooting Pre64m70s and based on your experience as a shooter thought they were great. When you started emphatically stating that the "action preferred --BY FAR--by the top custom gun makers of fine sporting rifles was the Pre-64 M70" It's pretty clear to me that you have spent much more time reading about it than doing it. The only action that will remotely get close to the number used for custom rifles built with the Mauser 98 --BY FAR-- may end up being the Rem700. That's why I basically said whip it out in a post a while back. Your baseless posts are really quite annoying and don't do anyone any good. Your posts where you state how and why you've formed your strong opinions should be welcomed here. This is a place where rifle lovers can chew the fat behind the keyboard curtain.

Like I said before, the reason I show up here is to learn something I don't know. I'm not a benchrest gunsmith. But I feel that if I want to give my clients a better product, I can learn something here from some of the smiths who build MANY of the most accurate rifles in the world. It's also good to hear about the experiences that shooters have had with various products. Good or bad. Just don't base your experience on something you've read, and post it as something you've worked with and know as fact. As far too many do when it comes to Mausers. Keep it real. Like Bill's great post above!

gunmaker

vicvanb
01-02-2008, 02:57 PM
My new year resolutions for 2008:

Sell all my M70s and buy Mausers.

Don't try to learn anything anymore by reading.

Join the gunmakers guild--the only way to voice opinions with "gravitasse."

Don't annoy "Gunmaker" or bruise his delicate ego.

Happy???

vicvanb
01-02-2008, 03:43 PM
I've been reading through a lot of posts and there seems to be a great variety of opinions on actions to build custom rifles from. I've always been a Remington 40x, 700 actions from my experience on a college shooting team. We also shot Winchester 52's and Anshutz rimfire. Which action is preferred by this group for custom high power?

I'm trying to rate the following:

Remington 700, 40X
Ruger 77 mk2
Winchester pre 64, post, new pre64 type
Savage
Remington 798
Mauser 98 copies
Obendorf
Husqvarna
Sako

Ben,

You are sure right about it being a tough crowd!!

Sorry this got so far afield from your basic aim.

I contributed only because I've had many years experience using old M70s (and some Mausers, Remingtons, Savages, Sakos, and Rugers). I do know this--old M70s have some very nice features. They look good. They function smoothly. Accurate rifles can be built based on old M70 actions. Many fine custom sporters have old M70 actions. They are in high demand--that must mean something.

Are there "better" actions? Depends on your intended purpose and preferences. If you are interested in extreme accuracy, go with something else. If you can't afford an old M70 action, go with something else. If you are concerned about case failure and gas leakage, go with something else. If you want the (apparently) absolute best machining, go with something else.

Call me annoying or filled with angst, but I like old M70s and you might too if you try them!

NOTHING I've said here was intended to claim Mausers (or any of the others) are poor choices. I know full well that MANY fine rifles have used Mauser actions. The truth is, all of the actions you listed are good choices--pay your money and take your choice.

Good luck!

Big Al
01-02-2008, 05:04 PM
I doubt it. I have never seen such an occurence. It is possible Mausers jammed if the cartridge fed in ahead of the extractor and the shooter panicked. Unaltered Mauser extractors dont jump over the rim very well.
The model 70 does have a gas vent hole but it's insufficient in the case of a serious brass failure. The model 70 does do a great job of venting the gas directly into the shooter's face. New model 70 CRF actions addressed this by adding the little gas block which was retained by the extractor collar. While the effectiveness of this little block is questionable, it was something. I retrofit this to pre-64 actions on my own rifles. The lack of gas handling ability was recognized early on and there was an article in the American Rifleman on modifying the bolt sleeve to improve shooter protection.
This is only a big deal in the event of a major failure. More than just a leaky primer. I shoot a couple of pre-war actions and just count on no brass failures! Regards, Bill.

Gas venting in the pre-64, can you say Springfield, no different what so ever. I don't know if numbers have ever been kept on people that lost their eye sight using which action, but the Springfield has to be near the top.

The only effective way I've seen the mod-70 brought under control for gas handling was ROY DUNLAP's solution. He vented the shroud on the left side and welded on a tiny angle bracket like, to protect the shooter from gas to straight back and up. As many of you know ROY's rifles were built for cross the course and Palma. More than a few pierced primer were seen in those days. Pierced primers on a Mod-70 put the gas right in the shooters face.

Please remember That I like the old Model 70's a great deal. Like the Man in the movie said,

"you just got to know your limitations" :o

SST
01-04-2008, 01:32 AM
I experienced a catastrophic failure when the bolt face broke on a custom 7mmRemMag I had built on a 1945 Mexican Mauser back in '69. The bolt face broke off between the center of the firing pin hole and the split lugs. Jack Belk later told me that the bolt failure was probably due to poor heat treatment of the bolt, a common occurance with that vintage Mexican Mauser. Nonetheless, when everything came apart, the bolt body was flashed with brass. It actually looked kinda pretty. Unfortunately, so was my face (except for the "pretty" part). That hideous looking Mauser bolt shroud that I was advised to replace with something more modern and pretty saved my eyesight.

The moral of the story is:
1) catastrophic failures actually do occur
2) features that can protect the shooter do indeed matter
3) heat treat the old Mexican Mausers before firing a modern magnum with it

I still have the 300 Win Mag my dad also had built on a 1945 Mexican Mauser in 1969, but the bolt has been replaced, bolt lugs and lug recesses recut, and the chamber recut. While I was at it, the old fancy stock we picked out at Rinehart-Fajen in Warsaw way back when got its checkering recut and a new hand rubbed oil finish. Since money was being spent like I grew it, I also topped it with a new Leupold 3.5-10 VX III with the Boone and Crocket reticle. I love the rifle. Accuracy wise, it's not anything I could compete with, by any stretch of the imagination, but it is an absolutely beautiful custom rifle that goes hunting every year.

vicvanb
01-04-2008, 06:58 PM
Sam,

Interesting! Glad your eyes were undamaged.

There is a picture of something similar in a Pre-64 M70 in Roy Dunlap's book--the result of the using the wrong bolt. [Oops! Forgot I'm not supposed to refer to things I've read. Sorry].

I have seen two old M70s that blew up--I mean really came apart. One was a 243 Featherweight, the other a 300 H&H Magnum Standard. Both apparently caused by firing a round with a bullet stuck part way up the bore. Seeing these made a believer out of me. Sort of like seeing a really bad car wreck. Makes you slow down.

Catastrophic failures can and do happen to all sorts of actions. I'm surprised they don't happen more often.

dennisinaz
01-06-2008, 11:50 PM
Notice I said that I bought mod 70s not that I sold them!!!

In fact, I have only ever sold one- a 220 Swift that I used as a hunting rifle but I just thought it was awfully heavy for a 220 Swift with a sporter weight barrel. I think I sold the Swift for $900 as they are "more desirable."

No doubt having a large population of retirees in the area contributes to the glut of mod 70s- husband dies, wife unloads his "deer rifle." I had a buddy who was a dealer of sorts and he would pick me out all the "shooters", this usually meant 270s and 30-06s.

The only other ones i really would spring for again are a 250 Savage (if they made that) and another 300 or 375. I like them for hunting rifles as they have great triggers, decent safeties and are easy to mount a scope on.

I have a Mod 30 that I need to restock and it has hideous bottom metal and a homemade aluminum scope mount. I am not a fan of the coned breaches, but there are custom actions out there with this feature.

My mod 70s feed so slick that I love hunting with them. They aren't target rifles, but kill just fine!