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RLB 40X
12-24-2007, 08:23 AM
With prices of everything going up, gas, bullets, food ,motels it is hard to justify traveling 400 mile to stay over nite, to pay $50 to $100 to enter a match to shoot up $100 worth of ammo to win a $20 plaqe or a $1.00 match pin.and chase a meaningless stat line.I think big money matches would draw a big croud,and clubs could still get a nice cut,we could not play without our clubs! somthing like $75.00 entery, 40 shooters =$3000 $1,000 to the club and a $2.000 purse divided however you like.if people will drive to win nothing, think how many would show up for a $1.000 first place prize! talk about serious compition and well tuned guns! will still shoot a few sanctioned matches not trying to cut thier throat,but i think a few of these around the country would be a big draw. think about a outlaw nationals,more shooters more entery fee,bigger purse,first place $2,000 everybody would be paying very close attenion,just somthing to think about,what do you think?:)

Patriot
12-24-2007, 09:19 AM
I think 80 percent of the shooters would feel like they are subsidizing the elite and a few would drop out. Folks might start to feel differently about competing side by side with someone in the business. Some of the competitors I know have a hard enough time covering the cost of equipment and travel to shoot in a big match. They are there to enjoy the match, not get rich. I'd vote no. This may sound stupid, but personally I'd feel wrong taking folk’s money if I won. If the money came from shooting suppliers I'd feel different.

Mark

DonMatzeder
12-24-2007, 09:35 AM
There have been money matches in the past. Usually, they are held as a sideshoot after the regular match. Not everyone participates. A big money match might get all the top dogs together but it wouldn't be a "big" match so it couldn't be that lucrative to the winner. Most of us know our place in the shooting pecking order and I, for one, wouldn't bet on myself in a match like that.

JLG.
12-24-2007, 10:52 AM
RLB, Here in Ohio thats all there used to be outlaw matches.This past Saturday night they had one in Athens they shoot the old br-50 targets the winner paid $20 entry and won $146.00 not a lot but more than paid for the gas and ammo.This is what got all of us to shoot sancationed matches.So my vote would be a big yes.

RLB 40X
12-24-2007, 10:56 AM
there wouldent be 39 loosers if you went back 3-5 spots. and yes I have been beet by harry ,Dj and many other very good shooters.for the past couple of years i can think of no one two or ten people that have dominated, lots of different winners.I remember listening to john r from mishigan tell of sutch matches,where he would burn down the road in his camero on weekends in the early 70s going to them.

BJH
12-24-2007, 12:53 PM
Sounds like fun, we have discussed(Chris and I )the same here in Texas....Don i know you and Darrel would show up for a match :D
As well as Danny and Scotty.


B.J.Hilliard

tim
12-24-2007, 01:19 PM
More matches more fun. This type of thing goes on all the time from center fire IBS money shoot to winter league cash payback. You just have to spread the wealth, so to speak, to keep interest up. Pay the big winner but offer $ for match winners, best target, etc. which will keep a few folks in it and interested.

Fred J
12-24-2007, 03:17 PM
BJ:
We held several matches like that in the past, and just might do it again. The main problem, was we could never get a solid commitment from a lot of the shooters, so it would wind up being just amost the few club shooters. We need to try the, rotate the shooter, not the equipment again.

Joe Haller
12-24-2007, 06:56 PM
But: I dumped centerfire ten years ago (because I was going deaf) and started looking for a rimfire game that I could introduce to a couple of clubs I belong to.

I ordered targets and rules for each of the RF Associations, and tried to decide on one that would attract "new shooters". I came to the disappointing conclusion that NONE of them had rules that would attract new shooters.

So, what did I do?

I pieced together a set of rules, taken from each of the Associations that I felt would ATTRACT NEW SHOOTERS. Please don't call our shoots "Outlaw". Just call me a Maverick: A term suggesting independence of thought or action.

We are using an award/prize system that had been working well for us in our centerfire and cowboy shoots.

OUR AWARDS SYSTEM: In each of our matches we give "every shooter" an award badge. Who was the gunsmith who said, "Everyone who steps up to the firing line and shoots in a match is a winner" (?).

In our matches the hotshots who win the matches, get bragging rights. No fancy trophies, and plaques are rare.

Half way through the match, before lunch we start selling 50/50 raffle tickets, as the shooters are eating lunch. We have a bunch of shooting related prizes. The shooter who's name is on the first ticket drawn out of the hat, gets his or her choice of half the money pot or, pick of the prizes. That shooter then draws a second name, and that shooter gets pick or the prizes, or maybe the money pot, if the first shooter took a prize. And, so on until all the prizes are gone. Then we go back to shooting the match.

We are trying to attract new shooters. Would you think that by NOT offering fancy awards to the winners, that they will not come back for another match? NO! The hot shots always come back. We got them hooked already. It's the new shooters we are after, and with this system the new shooters DO come back.

Works for us, in this little town in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. In one of our matches last August we had 37 shooters. When the snow melts next spring, we will break that record.

Joe Haller :-)

This graphic shows some of our award buttons. Every competitor gets one. The ones glued to a plaque are rare.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Joe_Haller/5buttonsplaque.jpg

bill s
12-24-2007, 07:32 PM
"what do you think?".... I say,
"Build it and they will come". Give it a try. That's the best way to find out.
Gas in the 70's was about .50 a gallon and ammo $1 a box.....
Just my opinion... bill:confused:;)

geneinnc
12-24-2007, 08:48 PM
Every sport goes through this stage. We tried the big money matches on the Golf Course a while back. The CGA came to visit and strip every winner of their amateur status. The majority could care less and the matches continued until the IRS got wind of the money payouts. They had no problem with the payouts, as long as Form 1099(taxable income) was filed. A few ignored that form at tax time, and got audited.

It usually comes down to this:

If the majority of shooters in Bench rest Shooting equate prize money to success, a Pro Shooting Tour will follow.

If the majority of shooters equate personal improvement and the sheer fun of competition to success, we will continue to shoot for those little pins and signed quarters. ( I WILL bring quarters this year Dr. Shelton:D)

It would be GREAT if we have enough shooters to support Club Shoots AND Pro Shoots.

It can happen that way. The mens Pro Pocket Billiards tour is open to all. When I played the mini tours, I was more than happy to shell out my money to compete in a field with Johnny Archer and Earl Strickland. I was never "lucky" enough to draw a match against the big names of 9 Ball, but I learned something about the game and competing under pressure.

dankillough
12-24-2007, 09:47 PM
Why do they have to be outlaw matches? Can't it be done at ARA or 50/50 matches? Seems I remember going to a couple of Tournaments that paid out pretty good.

But I agree, I would like to see some pay outs at the matches. Not anything to get rich on, but something to help with the gas and hotel.


Dan Killough
www.killoughshootingsports.com

TangoTwo
12-25-2007, 12:44 PM
Consider paying down a ways on the order of finish. That will give an average guy a chance at winning something. I have shot against Harry and DJ. I have even beat them on an occasional target 6 or 8 times. We don't talk about the 60 or 80 times they have beat me. While I'm not intimidated by the thought of competing against them, I realize that the odds are stacked against this average shooter. You will have to give the averge shooter a chance to recupe at least some of his entry fees to keep him interested.

Ken

langenc
12-25-2007, 08:36 PM
I am an outlaw shooting occasionaly with the Maverick-Joe Haller.

Joe has attracted shooters for a long time-I am one of them.

I have looked over the rules and requirements for some og 'the shoots'. I cant inagine spending 40-50 bucks or more to shoot. Some do and they should shoot in those matches.

geneinnc
12-25-2007, 08:55 PM
I am an outlaw shooting occasionaly with the Maverick-Joe Haller.

Joe has attracted shooters for a long time-I am one of them.

I have looked over the rules and requirements for some og 'the shoots'. I cant inagine spending 40-50 bucks or more to shoot. Some do and they should shoot in those matches.

I'm a bit confused by your post. Your going to spend more than $50 to shoot in an IR5050 or ARA Match. Entry fee is $20. Your going to shoot at least 4 boxes of ammo in a 3 target match. Thats another $30 to $60 depending on ammo.

Is the extra $30 of entry fee to shoot for more money the problem?

Just trying to see where your coming from.

IMO, another $30 for a match is a pitance, if you compare it to money invested in equipment needed to compete in benchrest.

ThaiBoxer
12-25-2007, 09:30 PM
I do this for the fun of extreme accuracy shooting and the pleasure of competition, not for the pleasure of spending. It's not the paying/winning money that makes it fun. It's the shooting, and sometimes winning, that makes it fun.

JMO,

Ben

Wilbur
12-25-2007, 10:26 PM
Add a cash option to any match but don't require participation. Charge the "normal" fee for those that don't want to play and more for those in the cash option. The winner gets the "award" and the top competitor(s) that paid the cash option gets the money.

Either way, money shoots work well in some areas and in others are a complete bust.

Rimfire
12-25-2007, 10:41 PM
It has been a long time since I shot BR but I thought when I saw this topic I could add to it.

Payouts are good and bad. If it was me, it should be an option.

I use to shoot in KY and every Friday night we had informal matches, well money matches. Payouts were optional and when I started I had a 350 buck Remington 540 with a custom barrel and well, the gun and I didn't have a chance. On the line next to me was Calfee's no.1 XP when Darrel owned it and just about every gun there was full custom guns. So I lost a lot some money, but I stopped paying into the payout until I had a chance.

Then I purchased/traded guns until I had one that would compete. Then I started bringing home 50-60 bucks every Friday night and things were good. Until the ammo ran out.

Through it all, I prefer just to pay a fee for the target and take home good targets. I won't even get into the politics of it all.

This game is expensive enough and payout matches are for the guys with the best equipment and largest pockets. I can't imagine there are a lot of new shooters that want to loose their money every week.

Dean

Joe Haller
12-25-2007, 10:41 PM
In our matches UP here in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, we do it a little different. We have a set of four rifle classes, and they are attracting new shooters to the game. We also have a course of fire and match fee schedule that varies to suit each shooters pocket book.

We charge $2.00 per target. 25 shots on the USBR target. For the person on a budget, the cost including ammunition could be less than $7.00. We have a Factory Sporter Class that restricts ammo to not more that $5.00 per box of 50.

We also allow "Reentry". If you are not satisfied with your first target, you can pay another two bucks and shoot again. So that person on a budget might spend $14.00 plus $5.00 for lunch plus gas to get to the range.

BUT: We have FOUR rifle classes. So the shooter who brings a bunch of rifles to the range, could shoot as many as eight targets. Those other classes allow match grade ammo. So: You and I, who are real gun nuts could spend up to $16.00 on match fees, plus as much as $75.00 on ammo. The $5.00 meals are usually pretty good.

Well: We can spend more than that, because we also have a 50-50 draw. One of our lady shooters spent $100 on a 50/50 raffle last August. She also won a CZ rifle with 24X scope worth $490.00. Another lady shooter bought one $2.00 ticket and won a CZ Scout.

Let me say, we are very flexable when it comes to match costs, and we have a wide range when it comes to rifle values. About a dozen of us have Unlimited rifles valued at $1500 to $3500. Most of our shooters have Factory Sporter, Vintage Smallbore and Semi-Auto rifles, valued in a more moderate range. We probably will never have an Outlaw Match with cash prizes for the hot shots. A match like that UP here would attract our four best shooters. Everyone else would stay home.

This system works for us. Our best attendance using this course of fire was 37 shooters. Four years ago we ran 2 RBA & 2 USBR sanctioned matches. Between 6 and 8 shooters in attendance at those matches.

Now some of you would say: "That's not bad": Because you know that the average number of shooters in an RBA or an ARA match is TEN shooters.

What we have UP here is working for us, and our goal for next year is 50 shooters in our August Match. I'll let you know next Fall if we make it.

Joe Haller

Dick Wright
12-26-2007, 07:55 AM
I shoot in matches because I like to shoot with other like-minded individuals. I shoot in matches that are fun.

Most of the rimfire matches I have shot in the last few years have been ARA sanctioned. The competitors' rifles are mostly state-of-the-art and most of the competitors are good shooters. I like the people I have shot with in ARA matches.

This year we will have at least a couple of rimfire matches at the Harrison Sportsmans' Club in Harrison, MI. They will not be ARA sanctioned because there just ain't that many ARA shooters. There is no class system so those with factory class rifles have no chance at all.

Last year the club spent a lot of money to make us excellent concrete benches at both 25 and 50 yds. It would take 50 years of ARA matches to get that investment back.

My experience is you need factory rifle shooters to show up and try out your matches. You give the factory winners the same prizes the bench gun shooters get. Some like the shooting and stick to it. Some eventually buy a BR gun and get serious. That's how you grow benchrest shooters. We've done it in centerfire benchrest for sixteen years. We intend to do the same thing in rimfire.

For those who don't live in Michigan, Joe Haller's matches in Sault Ste. Marie are about 2/3 the way to the North Pole. They are fun and I can't say enough about his ability to attract shooters, even if half of them are Eskimos. Based on the number of his shooters and compared to his population base (very few people live in the UP.)... Joe wins the attendence game by a mile. If I had to attend only one or two rimfire matches a year, they would be Joe's.

DonMatzeder
12-26-2007, 08:07 AM
If all you needed was a seperate class for factory rifles, all you have to do is define the class and buy some trophys. Shoot the ARA match and give out two sets of winners. The perpetual problem with this mentality is that no matter how you define the factory class, someone will start gaming the class. Is a Cooper factory? Mine is factory, I just "fixed" the trigger. Mine is factory, I just had to replace the barrel cause I shot the old one out. I like this stock better....There is no level playing field and anyone that does not have the best equipment, factory or custom, will be at a disadvantage.

RLB 40X
12-26-2007, 08:54 AM
Sounds like a lot of fun joe.didnt mean to offend anyone with the term (outlaw) i was looking at it like the sprintcar and late model races they call word of outlaws,just a term they use that means NO RULES,race or shoot what you bring.I have been out shooting with friends muzz,centerfire,17s,ars,I have gotten out my benchgun for them to shoot over sand bags and they are amazed at the 50 -100yd groups,the $1400+ I have in my 40x dosent scare them too bad,but then ask:ok I spend the money,shoot for a couple years pay my dues and get a win how do they pay? my repliy, little to nothing,all interest is suddenly lost.I still go because i like to shoot and compeate(or try).and then we get a ribbing from our local br 50 MD when he hears of us going down south,up north,out west or where ever(what did you win?how mutch did they pay back?knowing it was little to nothing he laughes and says you guys have more money than me to drive 3 states for bragin rites.this comming year i will continue to pay $30 to shoot up $40 worth of ammo because i love the game!not so mutch traveling though.I would stll like to go to a big match with a big pay back where i know if i did well my trip and ammo would be worth while.Istil dont think it would keep shooters away not wanting to enter.example two rolls of lottery tickets one roll pays the other dosent,they both cost $1, wonder what one will sell out?with so many good rifles on the line and anyone capible of a big win I dont look at it as giving my money to the elite.I think people would try harder than even a national match,just my thoughts,hope everyone had great christmas!

Bill Wynne
12-26-2007, 10:38 AM
You who want to shoot for money should do so.

I will shoot for fun with others who feel the same.

I will make my living in another way.:)

Dick Wright
12-27-2007, 07:21 AM
You are right in that shooters will always try to improve their rifles. That's what this sport is about, actually.

When it gets pretty flagrant, we split the factory rifles up into factory (unmodified) and custom (modified) classes and end up shooting three classes.

It's a pain in the arse for any match director because Joe spends a lot of time bitching about Jim's rifle which has a Jewell trigger. At the same time Joe thinks his Hart barrel, action truing, etc, etc, shouldn't keep him out of the pure factory class.

I started running benchrest matches in 1977. I think Joe Haller started before I did. Do you or have you ever run any matches or do you just sit on the sidelines and criticize the "mentality" of those who do?

DonMatzeder
12-27-2007, 08:12 AM
I have run matches...I sure was not critisizing, just pointing out the pitfalls and contentions that trying to run factory matches can bring you.

Joe Haller
12-27-2007, 10:27 AM
I set up and ran my first benchrest turkey shoot in 1956. First Smallbore Indoor League in 1958. First NRA sanctioned smallbore outdoor tournament in 1959. First club centerfire benchrest tournament in 1959. In that previous Century, we had as many as 75 shooters in sanctioned NRA tournaments and 55 in "local rules" benchrest. AND: Our little town of 15,000 is so far off the beaten path, so folks say you can't get here from there.

When we started NBRSA sanctioned matches in the 1970s, our benchrest match attendance dropped to an average of TEN. In this century, our RBA and USBR sanctioned matches never drew more that EIGHT.

I've tested a lot of ideas to attract new shooters to our local matches over the years. When you are not tied to the rules of a National Association, you are free to do that.

It makes me sad to say this, but the only events we have run that attracted LOTS of shooters were run under NRA Sanction. Put another way: "I think rules of all the benchrest associations SUCK".

If the rules don't change the sport won't grow. But: Seems like some benchrest shooters are happy just shooting officially sanctioned matches with a half dozen other guys. I know it is easier to run a match when you don't have a crowd. That may be the best reason to leave the official sanctioned rules as they are

Joe Haller.

Joe Friedrich
12-27-2007, 12:03 PM
We pay out cash for every match. The tournaments are paid double. At the end of the season when they receive their plaques they receive more cash given to all competitors.

If someone is shooting a sporter or heavy sporter they also receive cash for that class and high targets shot.

Its 1 dollar a target no matter what, juniors are free. There is cash for each high target shot, and ARA pins not the stars. The top winner in a regular match can walk away with 50 dollars. In the tournaments there is no pay for lunch, and the top winner can walk away with 120 dollars. I exclude myself of any winnings and plaques.

WE know this game is expensive, and even though we shoot for fun, a little pay back is also rewarding to the shooters. We will be adding for next year any record target shot will get a bonus and a perfect score will receive 100 dollars.

We decided to have this venue for the shooters, not to be impressive but to give back to the shooters.

Take Care.......Joe

Jon Turner
12-31-2007, 01:25 AM
I used to do the HP game. Did I ever win? I had the proverbial snow ball's chance but I shot any way. "Why", you ask, "if you know you're not going to win any thing?"
"Because I enjoy shooting and more importantly, the comeraderie." The object is, win, lose or draw, have a good time.
Just my $.02 worth.
Jon

Dick Wright
12-31-2007, 08:26 AM
You are exactly right. You shoot because you like to shoot and like to do so with your friends. Winning something once in a while is nice but not the main point.

A month ago we had a meeting at the local club that was attended by the 2007 Benchrest Shooter of the Year and the 2007 Super Shoot winner. They came to help us plan our 2008 season because they both know that the heart and soul of benchrest shooting is the club match and the shooters who attend big matches despite having little chance of winning anything. At the Super Shoot there's probably twenty or thirty people who have a realistic chance of winning. It wouldn't be very super without the other 300+ who show up and do their best, would it?

Wilbur
12-31-2007, 01:21 PM
You are right in that shooters will always try to improve their rifles. That's what this sport is about, actually.

When it gets pretty flagrant, we split the factory rifles up into factory (unmodified) and custom (modified) classes and end up shooting three classes.

It's a pain in the arse for any match director because Joe spends a lot of time bitching about Jim's rifle which has a Jewell trigger. At the same time Joe thinks his Hart barrel, action truing, etc, etc, shouldn't keep him out of the pure factory class.

I started running benchrest matches in 1977. I think Joe Haller started before I did. Do you or have you ever run any matches or do you just sit on the sidelines and criticize the "mentality" of those who do?

Your post raised a question and I'm not sure what it is but will try to ask it anyway.

On a national basis, would you trust without question the decision of any match director concerning the differentation of rifles (what goes where)? Consider that something like world records are involved.

Dick Wright
12-31-2007, 02:25 PM
It would depend on who the match director is. If it were you, the answer is an unqualified "Yes". I know a couple of people running matches who would cheat their ancient mother out of her social security check.

When I'm involved our matches are unregistered. The NBRSA doesn't sanction VFS which is and always has been a major part of our program. I refuse to live with a couple of the IBS's really silly rules. Obviously records are not available at an unregistered match but I don't know anybody skipping our matches for that reason.

I'm the only one so far that has been hurt at our range by shooting a score that couldn't be considered for a record. I shot a .161" agg. in 5 shot UL when the IBS record was .174". I didn't care that much because I have the targets and I know that, at one time, it qualified for a record had the match been registered. That record has been broken since when Bart shot a more realistic .139". Kroop shot a .125" agg at our place last year but it was in practice rather than a match. The record, if there were more matches fired in 5 shot UL, should be around the .125" area or even smaller.

I just reread your question... It's easy to make sure that bench guns are legal. It's in the rule book. Keeping Factory and Custom Class separate is a pain but there are no records so it probably isn't too important. Mr. Matzeder (above) is right in that someone will always game the system. We solve it locally by having the match committee reserve the right to move any rifle up in class. When asked who the match committee is, the answer is, "ME!" (In OCS I learned to say that in a manner that doesn't get questioned.)

I'm kinda rambling here... I hope I've answered your question. I don't see the organizations sanctioning factory or custom classes. It would require a thick rule book and there would be a huge temptation to cheat.

Dick Wright
01-01-2008, 07:47 AM
There is a need for a factory class. This is best evidenced by the ARA. They have the best rule book in that it's really simple. A legal rifle has to shoot factory made .22 Long Rifle ammo... period. There's no quibbling about rules cause there's very few rules. Their rifles are every bit as sophisticated as our centerfire guns. A lot of them have one piece rests that make them into quasi-rail guns.

The down side is practically no one shows up except the few shooters who have made an investment in a really expensive gun. Attendance is quite low compared to our centerfire matches which allow newbies to shoot their varmint rifles.

We are reluctant to have any more classes than factory, custom and benchrest. We will never have matches with a dozen shooters competing to win five different classes. When this happens winning anything except 1st in the BR class becomes meaningless.

Picher
01-01-2008, 09:52 AM
Joe,

The buttons are a great Idea!!!

Where can I get a kit to make them?

I applaud your efforts to grow the sport. We've held our heads above water here by catering to Plinker Class shooters who also compete as Unlimited class shooters for the same money. If the regular Unlimited shooter turnout isn't great, or if a few don't have the best day, a careful Plinker often picks up a second or third place.

Most Plinker shooters use customized 10-22s, though non-match grade bolt-action sporters can also shoot. Scope power is relegated to the lowest maximum power of any Plinker shooter showing up that match, though most have a minimum of 14x. The Plinker shooters use mostly Wolf MT, or ME.

If someone shoots over 240 a couple of times, that rifle will usually get booted up to Unlimited. The Plinker class is for beginners or people looking to get the most out of their relatively inexpensive sporters. No "dedicated" benchrest sporters are allowed, but we don't limit the modifications that people make in their rifles.

This year, I'm thinking we'll decide to shoot a few plinker matches where everyone will have to shoot the same lower-priced ammo. We may even try a match where we swap rifles and ammo - by draw. That might be very interesting. ;)

John

Fred J
01-01-2008, 11:26 AM
Your last suggest is a Blast. We've done it and it make for a great money match.

Joe Haller
01-01-2008, 11:16 PM
We did that a few years ago with centerfire benchrest rifles, and everyone liked it. A sticker with a number was places on each rifle. We all drew numbers. If we drew our own rifle we had to draw again. It was called "The Luck of the Draw Match".

Fred: How did you run yours as a "money match".

Fred J
01-01-2008, 11:58 PM
Pay back all the fees, to those that partispate. Others that show up and don't want to partisipate are just there for practice, and would pay a seperate range fee. It has to be a fun match not linked to any organization. I have used it as a seperate from ARA match several times.

Joe Haller
01-02-2008, 02:15 AM
Several years ago I saw some 2 1/4 inch plastic badges in the craft department at Walmart. Cost about 90 cents each. I tried making a few round graphics on my computer, cut them out and popped them into the badges. They went over big with the shooters. Each month I would come up with a new design for our matches.

Then a couple of years ago I read here on BRC that one of our good BR gunsmiths said:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone who steps up the line and shoots in a match is a winner. The only loosers are the ones who don't come out to the match".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wish I could remember who said that. Maybe someone else remembers.

I though it was profound. Talked to some of the club officers about it and decided to give award badge to EVERYONE who steps up to the line and shoots in our matches.

In fact we don't give out award to the winners anymore. We put that extra money into range improvements. The match winners still come back for more. Well: OK. They are all winners, right? The "Match" winners get bragging rights, but no fancy wood plaques or trophies They all come back for more, and they are bringing their wives and girlfriends with them.

Here are some examples of my "art work".

Joe

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Joe_Haller/Awards/12Badges.jpg

John E. Rupert
01-03-2008, 10:46 AM
Now Joe a big question for you. What class are we going to shoot the new Ruger Challenger Pistol in:eek:????

Joe Haller
01-03-2008, 07:49 PM
Ruger Challenger Pistol?

I don’t know about about setting up a class for pistols in our local benchrest matches. We did have a small number of pistols shooting in the RFC On-Line Matches when we started, back seven years ago. The TC Contenders did fairly well at 25 yards, but with no special class for them, they faded away.

In small local matches, a club is not able to break out several classes, as the number of shooters is so small. Ya gota have NUMBERS before ya can promote classes. To get the numbers ya gota have classes. Like the chicken or the egg: Which comes first?

When we set up the RFC On-Line-Matches, we started getting numbers real quick. In the third year we had 114 shooters in one month. That was when I decided Classes would work for us. I did not feel it would work on the local club level, but pulling in shooters from many States, Canada, England and Brazil: It works. Now we have four classes in the matches: Unlimited, Vintage Smallbore, SemiAuto and Factory Sporter.

Now, our little club here in da U.P. is able to do the four classe too, because we are getting the NUMBERS. If we had a few more benches, we might think about adding a pistol class to our local match course of fire.

Joe :-)

Wilbur
01-04-2008, 01:54 AM
You did answer my question in its entirety. It was loaded (always) and you fielded it perfectly.

There exists some conflict with the factory/plinker/beginner class. We all want it but when faced with the setup there seems to be no solution. Add a single rule and it begins to go south...add another and it's gone...

Dick Wright
01-04-2008, 07:24 AM
There's nothing you can do about it. Almost all the complaints we've ever had were about someone else's rifle in Factory class. And you must shoot Factory Class if you want to grow new shooters. The Custom Class for rifles with any modifications at all is the best solution we've come up with.

If it weren't for the super high pay, being a match director wouldn't be worth it. I think most people that run matches drink hard likker, at least after they've been doing it for a year or so. It used to be hard likker and loose women but... at my age.:o

John E. Rupert
01-04-2008, 06:24 PM
Joe, I just wondered in what class or division these new Ruger pistols would compete in? If I bought one I was wondering what I would have to shoot against and it would give me an idea on what optics and ammo I could use.
Thanks.......... John R.............

Joe Haller
01-04-2008, 11:21 PM
John:

Just enter it in the RFC Unlimited Class and invite others to shoot the Ruger Pistol, or any old pistol. If we get at least TEN entries, we'll make a special class for pistols. I made that offer four years ago to the guys bragging about how accurate their .17 HMRs were. A few shot and their scores were terrible. Never got 10 shooters and they faded away. Too bad, but we can muck around like that with new rules, and no one gets hurt, like they would if a National Association decided to make/change rules.

If a spark is light, like what happened when we started our Factory Sporter and Vintage Smallbore Classes, the rimfire game gets new shooters: (And some of them go on to shoot in Sanctioned Matches)

We can make offers like that, because we are "outlaws". But I like the term "Maverick" better: "Independence of thought or action"

Come on U.P. next Spring when the snow melts.

Joe :-)
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John E. Rupert
01-05-2008, 08:42 AM
Joe, would this little Ruger be legal in these two classes also? Semi-Auto and Factory Sporter. It seems that this would be the fun area's to shoot it in.

max456
01-05-2008, 09:44 AM
I shoot at two different matches here in Oh,neither sanctioned.
At Fresno we shoot a modified type 50/50 target which has three sighter targets and twenty bulls for record.You can shoot any gun you want,the cost is four dollars with no re-entery.The club gets half the money,then the rest is paid back out.But most of the time the winners donate it back to the club.The club has food and drinks for sale and makes a little from that.But we do it for the fun of it! And a good time is had by all.In the winter we shoot from inside the clubhouse out of the windows.A club memeber made inserts for the windows which allow a six inch square to be opened so our barrels stick out through the windows,while keeping the heat indoors.

At Tusco Rifle Club, we start shooting in April and have to quit in September because we have no lights up there yet. But we have three classes,sporters,factory target and unlimited.We shoot the same type of target and it cost the same,$4.00! If you win you get a ribbon for first , second, and third places.But once again we have a great time and get to shoot.Plus we contributed over $900.00 to club from our little shoots for last summer.I have never shot in anything but this type of match. Most of us go for the fun of shooting and being around like minded people.

Joe Haller
01-05-2008, 12:19 PM
John:

We have had a FEW pistol shooters in the On-Lilne Matches . . . Very Few.

In the beginning . . .

January 2001
204-0x. Star444. Kinston, North Carolina. (Jay Who?)
Ruger Mk-II PISTOL! SS 6-7/8 Slabside. Bushnell 2-6X32 Pistolscope 6X. Fed 711B

February 2001
166-0x Dee Turner. Emmett, Idaho (dee@bigskytel.com)
Ruger MK-II PISTOL. Bausch & Lomb Elite 3000 2X. American Eagle HP
6 7/8" Target barrel. Pistol scope. Redfield rings, Clark base

June 2001
182-0x Don Farrington. Hillsdale, Indiana, (tonner)
Ruger MarkII PISTOL. Simmons Pro Hunter 2x20. CCI Mini-Mag Solids.
Box Stock Competition Target Model. Wind 10-15 mph downrange. First time out with scope. No score on 12th bull, shot 11th bull twice (both 6s so in my own mind it is 188 0x :) , Almost invisible holes with 2x scope.

December 2001
237-5x Larry Spencer. Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan
T/C Contender PISTOL. BSA 25x50mm Contender. Eley Black Box.
Wide flat foreend. Home made Don Bower type pistol rest.

January 2002
233-3x Larry Spencer. Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan
T/C Contender PISTOL. BSA Contender 24X50mm scope. Feberal 900B
Stock pistol with stock heavy 14 inch barrel.

February 2002
242 -2x Charlie McMillion. Sterling, Virginia. INDOORS
T/C Contender PISTOL. Weaver 36x. RWS Target Rifle.
Barrel is 14". Excuses: The range has those cheap, plastic fold-down trays, not real, solid support. There is constant movement when using them. The dot wavers around somewhere inside the 9 ring most of the time. When someone else in the range fires a large-caliber handgun, or a shotgun, the tray acts picks up the blast and the dot will jump completely off the target.

240-2x Dan Tarpley. Alexandria, Virginia.
T/C Contender. 3 -9X Leupold scope set at 9X. Wolf Match Target.
14 inch bull barrel. Shot targets at the NRA range last weekend and today. Last weekend, shot off the wobbly pedestal tables they have and got a 231 and 234. Hung around the range today until the lane with the shooting bench freed up and shot 234 and 240. The range has been busy the last few months and that must be a good sign.

December 2002
246-7x Dan Tarpley, Alexandria, VA
Contender pistol, 14 inch Bullberry barrel, 4.5 - 14X Leupold scope set at 14X, Wolf Match Target. Shot indoors at the NRA Range, Fairfax Virginia.
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And then there were none: Those pistol shooters just faded away.
We have had more than 900 rifle shooters in the RFC On-Line Matches in the past 7 years. A lot of them are now shooting sanctioned matches

Perhaps we should offer a Pistol Class, and not wait for 10 shooters to comitt . We could do that, you know: Because we are Mavericks.

Joe :-)

John E. Rupert
01-05-2008, 01:49 PM
Joe.
We don't need a seperate class for the pistol shooters. We don't have one in the ARA either, but for the for classes that you do have, I'm asking is it going to be all right to shoot in the Sporter, Semi-auto, and unlimited classes with this new Ruger contraption? Sure sounds like a lot of fun competeing in these classes.

SCOTTY HEBERT
01-05-2008, 05:32 PM
I agree with wilber , make it a money opition match , if you want in , get in, if you dont it want hurt nobodys feelings . RLB40X if you want to shoot for money i am willing to make a trip up there , but it aint gonna be for a few bills , better have lots of cash:D this could get interested.....

RLB 40X
01-05-2008, 09:14 PM
Scotty it sounds great to me,only one problem i dont have a range,mabey with some proding on JLG we could get somthing together.ive been going to talk to him about one at his place that could scheduled ahead of time and advertise for it ,i think he would be suprised by the turn out.I must be gluten for punishment willing to shoot against you and him for money, but you never know, have pulled it off in the past mabey can dooo again:eek:

SCOTTY HEBERT
01-05-2008, 10:38 PM
MAYBE SEE YOU AT jERRYS THIS YEAR.... BE COOL BROTHER JUST HAVING FUN.....:D:D:D

JLG.
01-05-2008, 10:45 PM
Scotty it sounds great to me,only one problem i dont have a range,mabey with some proding on JLG we could get somthing together.ive been going to talk to him about one at his place that could scheduled ahead of time and advertise for it ,i think he would be suprised by the turn out.I must be gluten for punishment willing to shoot against you and him for money, but you never know, have pulled it off in the past mabey can dooo again:eek:

DONT SING IT BRING IT!!! We will work something out for the spring if your willing to help out I will get door prizes and 100% cash payback.Maybe some of the fellows from KY.& IND. can make it.Jerry

BillBrawand
01-06-2008, 11:29 AM
In Thirty Years Benchrest Has Changed To Nascar To Golf To Who Has Money.to Keep New Competers Comming In Supplers Will Have To Support More Often.such Is Done In The Above Mention. Example 150 Place For The Year In Golf 150,000 Bucks Think About It Bill Brawand

GordonE
01-06-2008, 02:37 PM
"RATTLER" This sounds like it could be one of them High Roller games.

Joe Haller
01-06-2008, 02:49 PM
Man . . . You write HARD.

But, I think I understand what you are getting at. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You think that more of our clubs should be getting support from corporate and gun shop sponsors, Right? Kelbly does it at the Center Fire Super Shoot, and a few of the larger rimfire matches manage to get prize donations from gun related businesses.

Here at our little club in Northern Michigan we have been able attracted more shooters by offering gun related prizes. BUT: How many businesses are willing to shell out gun related prizes when the average number of shooters in sanctioned matches is TEN?

When we try to compare what we are doing, with NASCAR and Golf, we should keep in mind that auto racing is a big spectator sport, and Golf has ONE set of rules. We are different, and would do best trying to think of a different "marketing strategy".

Whatever that strategy is, it should include getting more shooters into the game, which means more benches on bigger ranges. It also MUST include entry level rifle classes. The other side of that coin is: You can have a lot of fun without a lot of extra work, when you are in a match with NINE other shooters.

As for MONEY shoots: In my opinion that "strategy" will produce fewer shooters.

Joe Haller (Mr. Frosty)

hawkeye wizard
01-22-2008, 07:50 AM
Rather than limiting ammo selection by price, why not just list acceptable brands and types of ammo. Prices vary widely and change often, making your rules obsolete. Why not just say something like:

"Standard velocity .22LR ammo only.
Any ammo manufactured by Remington (except Remington Eley), Winchester, CCI, or Federal.
Any ammo manufactured by Eley except Tenex, black box EPS, or black box Semi auto
Any ammo manufactured by Lapua except Midas or Master"
Any ammo manufactureb by Wolfe except Gold.

You can add or subtract from that list as you see fit. Such a list would give unsanctioned competitors lots of choices of ammo to play with, would automatically limit ammo costs, and would not be subject to change everytime someone changes their prices.

JLG.
01-22-2008, 03:26 PM
Rather than limiting ammo selection by price, why not just list acceptable brands and types of ammo. Prices vary widely and change often, making your rules obsolete. Why not just say something like:

"Standard velocity .22LR ammo only.
Any ammo manufactured by Remington (except Remington Eley), Winchester, CCI, or Federal.
Any ammo manufactured by Eley except Tenex, black box EPS, or black box Semi auto
Any ammo manufactured by Lapua except Midas or Master"
Any ammo manufactureb by Wolfe except Gold.

You can add or subtract from that list as you see fit. Such a list would give unsanctioned competitors lots of choices of ammo to play with, would automatically limit ammo costs, and would not be subject to change everytime someone changes their prices.

Guy's by doing all this limits and rules THATS NOT benchrest its plinking! My definition of benchrest is getting everything out of the gun you can get Period.And your not getting that done by limits.BR. is a very costly sport and it just keeps rising.But like I said anything else is just plinking. Jerry

Fred J
01-22-2008, 03:37 PM
Jerry:
I'm with you on this one. Maybe Wilbur needs to open a "Plinker's " Forum. Leave the True Bench Rest Forum, a "True Dedicated Bench Rest Forum".

Wilbur
01-22-2008, 04:16 PM
I really don't think money shoots would increase our numbers in the long run but don't know for sure. It's worth a try for those inclined and not at all necessary for the money part to be "sanctioned".

Recall that we are already over the top "cautious" concerning fairness in scoring. Add a couple or three Benjis to the mix and it may become intolerable at first glance.

Joe Haller
01-22-2008, 08:27 PM
. . . could be the true dedicated bench rest shooters of tomorrow.

We all KNOW the high dollar rifles are what has limited the growth of our sport: Right? And: It's a pretty good bet that this ammo inflation thing is going to hurt us bad: If we don't do something. We already have a bunch of guys jumping ship, planning to float around in that air gun canoe.

UP here, and over on RFC: We have an Unlimited Class which has the same rules as ARA on rifles and ammunition. No restrictions on ammo cost. The difference is, we shoot on the USBR target. I know how to score a leading edge target. Never could figure out how to score that ARA target. But: I am old. Been scoring leading edge for more than 50 year. Don't want to learn new ways, or maybe it's, "Can't learn new ways".

In addition to Unlimited Class: We have three other classes:
Vintage Smallbore
Semi-Auto
Factory Sporter
(Ask me about those "different" classes, they just might be what can save the sport)

Two of them have ammo price restrictions. The two with ammo restrictions are Vintage Smallbore and Factory Sporter. Our Semi-Auto class has no restrictions yet, but will have soon.
In our Vintage Smallbore Class we do not allow:
----------------------
Eley Red Box.
Lapua Midas.
RWS R-50.
Federal 1000 A & B.
Wolf Match Gold.
----------------------
Those are ammo brands that have a value of more than $11.00 per box of 50, as listed on Champion Shooters Supply's Website.
http://www.championshooters.com/index-ssl.html
Prices are before transportation costs or tax. If and when Champion increases prices we adjust.
----------------------
In our Factory Sporter Class, in addition to not allowing the above brands of ammo, we do not allow:
----------------------
Eley Black Box.
Lapua Master.
RWS Rifle Match.
----------------------
That ammo sells for more than $7.00 per box of 50.
----------------------
The "Good Stuff" allowed In our Factory Sporter Class has a current maximum or $7.00 per box of 50, before transportation or taxes. Here is the ammo currently approved for our Factory Sporter Class.
----------------------
Eley Silhouex
Eley Club Extra Orange
Eley Target Rifle Yellow
Eley Target Pistol
Eley Pistol Standard
Eley Standard Brown
Eley Subsonic HP
Eley Practice White - Obsolete
Eley Sport
----------------------
RWS Target
RWS Subsonic HP
----------------------
Laupa Super Club
----------------------
SK Match
SK Rifle Match
SK Pistol Match
SK Standard Plus
SK Subsonic
----------------------
Wolf Match Target.
Wolf Target Extra.
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Other
CCI Standard Velocity
CCI Mini-Mag 40 gr.
Winchester T-22 target
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Aguila has not come out with their 2008 price list yet.
BUT: If the peso is not tied to the Euro, I think that all Aquila .22 ammo will fit in that $7.00 or less group.
------------------------------
Mr. Frosty :-)

Dick Wright
01-25-2008, 06:30 PM
a lot simpler. We will shoot a factory class, definition being, "If it ain't a bench gun, it must be a factory gun." You can always tell a real benchrest rifle cause they look like a BR rifle.

There will be no ammo restrictions.

This may change as time goes by. If we get more and more factory shooters we will probably split them up into factory (unmodified) and custom (modified) classes. That's what we've done in our centerfire matches.

Joe, what's a vintage factory rifle? Would my old Model 75 Winchester sporter with a 10X x 1" Unertl qualify? I think it was made in the 40's or 50's. It's just a squirrel rifle but it shoots pretty good. There's a picture or two a few months back in a Precision Shooting article (sometime in '07) that I wrote.

schmidp4811
01-25-2008, 06:51 PM
Joe,
How do you define "Vintage" and "Sporter"

Joe Haller
01-25-2008, 08:12 PM
Hello schmidp4811:

Here at our club and on RFC we started the Factory Sporter Class four years ago. I will tell you about the Factory Sporter class in another post.

Below is information on our Vintage Smallbore Class, which we started here at our club and on RFC last October.

Last summer I had been thinking of all the smallbore rifles that CPM has been selling, since the Clinton Administration and the EPA closed down so many indoor ranges. Those great old smallbore rifles that had been used in NRA Prone and Position matches, all over the country: Where are they? Sitting in gun safes.

And why? Because the ROTC and Junior rifle teams are shut down, or are now shooting air guns. These great old rifles are not quite good enough to compete with the custom rifles in our benchrest matches: Unless they are customized at a cost of about $1200 to $1500.

I talked the idea up over on RFC about creating a set of rules that would allow this rifle to shoot in our RFC On-Line Matches. (And in our local matches)

Here is want we came up with:

1. WEIGHT: No restrictions on weight, but the rifle must not exceed the original factory weight. No additional weight allowed.

2. STOCKS: Must have original stock. Or: If the stock as been modified or the original stock has been replaced with a custom, a factory stock of the same type as the original may be used. Glass bedding is allowed.

3. BARREL: Rifle must have original barrel, with no barrel tuner. The factory barrel may be shortened and recrowned. Rechambering is not allowed.

4. SCOPE POWER: No restriction on scope power.

5. TRIGGER: Must be mechanical. No electric or remote triggers. Trigger parts/springs or custom triggers may be installed for a light pull. Must be safe.

6. RESTS: Front and rear rests, not connected and filled with sand. Windage and elevation adjustments are allowed on the front rest. BiPod front rest allowed. A large single sand bag of the "Bulls Bag" type would be allowed.

7. AMMUNITION: Not to exceed $11.00 per box of 50. Price will be before shipping or taxes.
(No Eley Red Box, Lapua Midas or RWS R50)
Prices listed on the Champion Shooters Supply Website will be our "standard price list".
The Champion Shooters Supply website:
http://www.championshooters.com/index-ssl.html
Click on "Ammunition" on the left side of the home page.
Discontinued match grade ammunition is considered to be in the same price range as similar ammunition in current production. (No Federal 1000 A or B).
With the cost of ammunition rising: We will adjust prices in the future.

8. RESTRICTIONS: Any rifle with a benchrest type stock or a custom action or a factory action that has been "blueprinted" will not be allowed in this class. A benchrest stock is one that has a foreend with a flat bottom, more than 2.7 inches wide, and/or has the bottom of the buttstock parallel or near parallel to the bottom of the foreend.
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Other rules that apply are General Rules for the RFC On-Line Matches.
---------------------------------------------
9. From the front edge of the bench to the face of the target: 25 yards.

10. A maximum of 20 minutes is allowed to fire all sighter shots and one shot at each of the 25 record bulls.

11. If a rifle fits the rules for more than one rifle class, you may enter the rifle in each of those classes. Before you start a target, you write the rifle class on the target and enter that score in that rifle class. Do not enter that score in more than one match. You may shoot a maximum four targets per month in each rifle class where the rifle fits the rules. Post your best score(s) in the correct match thread for the month.

12. You may shoot more than one rifle each month: Not more that four targets per rifle.

13. You may shoot on an indoor range from December to March. If you shoot indoors: Type (INDOORS) at the beginning of the third line of your score report. Because it is HOT in our Southern States in the Summer (And in Australia and South American,in our winter): Anyone who has access to a 25 and or 50 yard indoor range, may shoot the RFC matches INDOORS, as long as they indicate "INDOORS" in their score reports."

14. Junior Shooters: The minimum age of a young person allowed in these competitions will be determined by the parent. A Junior shooter is a young persons who has not reached the age of 18. If your are a Junior: Type (Age 14): Or whatever your age, at the end of the first line of your score report.

15. If you have a screen name: Put that at the end of the first line: (RedNeck)
----------------------------------------------
Feel free to post details of your equipment, weather reports and excuses. Posting encouragement and a little kidding as we have done in the past would be a good thing too.
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Format Example:
249-15x John Doe. Columbia, South Carolina. (RedNeck)
Suhl 150. Weaver T-36. Eley Black Box.
Factory barrel. 2 oz. trigger. McMillan stock. Cowen front rest.
Sunny day. 5 mph wind: 3 to 5 o'clock
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I will give you information on our FACTORY SPORTER Class in another post.

Joe Haller

Joe Haller
01-25-2008, 08:42 PM
Yes, your Winchester M-75 would fit in our Vintage Smallbore Class. If it would weight no more that 8.5 pounds, with that 10X Unertl, and the stock has not been modified (lightened) it could also be shot in our Factory Sporter Class.

I am going to explain our Factory Sporter Class in my next post here in this thread.

Joe :-)

Joe Haller
01-25-2008, 09:31 PM
We started Rimfire matches here in Sault Ste. Marie and down in Mission, Texas in 1999. We got the RFC On-Line-Matches going in 2001. Like ARA, we had ONE class. At that time most of our shooters were using Ruger 10/22s and CZ 452s. We had as many as 114 shooters in one month, but in our third year, the attendance started to drop off. The reason was a slow migration to unlimited rifles. Some moved up and others just dropped out. So, in our fourth year we decided to add classes for Factory Sporters and Semi-Autos. No special rules or restriction for the semi-autos. Most of the ones in the matches had been "tricked out". The light unmodified Rugers would be able to shoot in the Factory Sporter Class

Here are the rules we came up with for our Factory Sporter Class. We put restrictions on the equipment as we did not want to lead the shooters into an Equipment Race with custom stuff.

1. Rifle Value: May not exceed the “NiB” (New in Box) BlueBook value of $500.00. A list of eligible rifles will be compiled. If you are not sure of the value of your rifle: Shoot it anyway. We will tell you if it meets the $500.00 rule.

2. Weight must not exceed 8.5 lbs with scope or iron sights attached.

3. Must have the original factory barrel, and stock. Butt stock may be cut back to fit a Lady or Junior shooter. Barrel must not be rechambered or cut back. Recrowning is allowed.

4. Free floating the barrel and glass/pillar bedding is allowed. Upward pressure on the barrel with shims/glass is allowed. Tuners at the muzzle or screw type tuners in the stock are not allowed. Any labor charge by a gunsmith will not be included in the $500.00 limit.

5. Triggers must be safe. Trigger tuning is allowed. Aftermarket triggers or parts are allowed if the cost of trigger/parts, when added to the blue book vaulue of the rifle, does not exceed $500.00. Any labor charge by a gunsmith will not be included in the $500.00 limit.

6. Scope sights will be limited to not more than 24 power. No limit on the cost of the scope, or iron sights. Diopter lenses are allowed in iron sights,

7. Rests: Elevation and windage adjustments on rests must not be moved after the first sighter shot. A bipod may be attached to the rifle. It will not be included in the 8.5 lb. weight limit.

8. Ammunition Value: 22 Long Rifle Rimfire ammunition must not exceed $6.00 per box of 50 or $60.00 per brick of 500, before transportation or taxes.

9. If a rifle fits the rules for more than one rifle class, you may enter the rifle in each of those classes. Before you start a target, you write the rifle class on the target and enter that score in that rifle class. Do not enter that score in more than one match. You may shoot a maximum four targets per month in each rifle class where the rifle fits the rules. Post your best score(s) in the correct match thread for the month.

10. Box Stock Rifles: The rifle must meet the ,22 Factory Sporter rules, and may not exceed the “NiB” (New in Box) BlueBook value of $500.00: No modifications to the rifle, the trigger, or the bedding. The rifle must be as it came out of the box from the factory. If you shoot a (BOX STOCK) rifle in this class: At the begining of the third line of your score entry: Type (BOX STOCK).
----------------------------------------------
Format Example:
238-3x Bill Holladay. Cody, Wyoming. (Age 12)
CZ 452 American. Bushnell 4-12X. Eley Yellow Box.
Brookie Trigger kit. Free floated barrel. No glass bedding.
Misty rain. Shot under a covered firing line. Dad changed targets.
----------------------------------------------
Another Format Example:
229-1x Sam Spade. New York, New York
Marlin M-25. Tasco 6-24X. CCI Standard.
(BOX STOCK) Front rest was a cement block with a folded up hunting shirt on top. Rear rest wasa shot bag full of sand.
Excuse: First time I ever shot in a match like this.
----------------------------------------------

schmidp4811
01-26-2008, 06:21 PM
Joe,
In your post on vintage rifles you refer to "custom" vs. "factory" actions....how do you draw the line between custom & factory? Defined by supplier name, or production numbers, or over-the-counter availability, or ???? Thanks

Joe Haller
01-26-2008, 10:03 PM
Hello again Schmidp:

I suppose you are referring to the first part of Vintage Smallbore rule #8 . . .

8. RESTRICTIONS: Any rifle with a benchrest type stock or a custom action or a factory action that has been "blueprinted" will not be allowed in this class.

A custom action would be a Hall, Turbo, Time, Swindelhurst or other action produced in small quantities, as opposed to production actions such as Remington M-37 - 40X, Winchester 52ABCD, Anschutz 54/64, Walther KK/UIT, Suhl 150 . . . and other actions produced in quantity.

A production action that has been "blueprinted", would be considered a custom action. Blueprinting meaning that the action has been trued by a gunsmith, so that the centerline of the barrel will be true with the centerline of the action. They, according to the rules would be considered custom actions.

The class is for the old Smallbore rifles with wood stocks that where popular in NRA prone and position matches. These have been called "target rifles", but the class is open to sporter rifles, that fit the rules such as the Cooper and Anschutz sporter weight rifles. Those high end sporters have been excluded from our Factory Sporter Class. because Blue Book 100% value on them exceeds $500.

I hope this explanation is a little cleared than mud. And, a question for you: Do you suppose this explanation should be included in our rules?

Joe :-)

Dick Wright
01-26-2008, 10:16 PM
Interesting question... My Model 75 is a collector's gun. I'm sure it's worth quite a bit more than $500.00, especially with the Unertl.

When I bought it, in the early 70's, I had Stu Hanson (Saginaw's best amatuer gunsmith) crisp up the trigger for me to about three pounds and had the receiver drilled and tapped for the rear Unertl scope base. The front base slips into the rear sight dovetail. It's been my squirrel rifle ever since.

It has a "Super Grade" stock that came from the Winchester custom shop... with the gun to my knowledge. The stock is similar in shape to a standard M-75 but it was checkered, has a cheekpiece and a black fore end tip just like a Model 70 Super Grade of the period.

I doubt if the gun cost much more than a hundred bucks new. However, that was a long time ago and some guns, unlike their owners, get more valuable as they age.

Alas, it shoots like crazy with Eley Red Box.:(

O.K. Mr. Frosty... what class you gonna put it in?

Joe Haller
01-26-2008, 10:47 PM
You are gona go in the Vintage Smallbore Class with that Winchester M-75. No limit on blue book value in the Vintage Smallbore Class.

I don't have my Blue Book handy right now. I will look the value up later. If my memory is not too defective and that 75 is the sporter model, you are WAY over the $500 limit of the Factory Sporter Class.

Joe (Mr. Frosty)

schmidp4811
01-27-2008, 07:14 PM
Joe,
Thanks for the clarification.....Yes, it would benefit foggy minds like mine to explicitly define the line between custom & factory, whether we're talking actions, barrels, stocks or whatever.

S.Duffin
02-01-2008, 07:33 PM
What is the schedule for the OUTLAW MATCH.Location, time and date.. Thanks..

Dick Wright
02-01-2008, 08:08 PM
The term actually refers to unregistered matches. Unregistered probably is slightly more politically correct. (That's the first time in my life I've ever suggested anything that might be considered politically correct.) However, the "Outlaw" part might be appropriate if one were referring to some of the competitors.:D

We have two 2008 matches in Harrison, MI on June 7th and August 9th. Email or PM me for details.

There is normally a match a month at Sault Ste. Marie, MI in the U.P. Joe Haller watches this site and can give you details.

Joe Haller
02-01-2008, 09:06 PM
We have computer "On-Line Matches" on Rimfire Cental every month. You shoot on your own range, score your own target, and post your score, with a list of rifle, scope and ammo you used: You will find the match reports in the RFC "Matches" section, here:
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=180

Like us, here in Michigan,there are a few clubs around the country that run these RFC matches, shoulder to shoulder each month. They are politically incorrect, because they are not sanctioned by USBR. We use the USBR target at 25 and 50 yards, and that's a different course of fire, eh. I believe that 25 yard match is the secret to attracting and keeping new shooters. We report all our members scores to RFC. The match entries are low this time of year because of the cold weather up north. But, there are at least two clubs in Texas that shoot RFC shoulder to shoulder matches during the winter months.

Here in Michigan Dick Wright will have his two "unregistered" rimfire matches at Harrison in June and August. A lot of shooters do not know, this but the largest centerfire benchrest match in the World is the SUPER SHOOT at George Kelbly's Range in Ohio. Unregister or Outlaw: Matches like this are able to attract large numbers of shooters. I like the word Maverik better than Outlaw. It suggests independent thought or action.

Way UP here on the Canadian Border at Sault Ste. Marie, we are hibernating right now. We will start holding our monthly Rimifre YOOPER SHOOTS in April. You are invited to come UP and shoot with us. It is nice UP Here in the Summer months, after the snow melts.

Here is our match schedule at Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan:

Joe Haller - Mr. Frosty :-)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Joe_Haller/2008YooperShoot.jpg

Joe Haller
02-01-2008, 09:54 PM
Part to the problem getting new shooters into our "game", when they are not with a local club, is scoring the target. I have learned that a LOT of shooters have no idea of how to score a target. I felt it was the biggest barrier to setting up our "On-Line Matches" over on RFC, back in 2001.

How do you teach someone to score a target correctly? I found that when you are right there, physically, showing them with a scoring gauge: Some shooters "Just don't get it".

When I was shooting down in Mission, Texas, most of the club members refused to score. I got tired of scoring all the targets. So, I drew up a couple of graphics. It worked. After showing the graphics to one of my most difficult "students", he said:
"Oh, now I see".

Here are copies of the graphics:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Joe_Haller/Targets/Scoring1-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Joe_Haller/Targets/Scoring2-1.jpg

settlersbaydon
02-02-2008, 01:12 AM
stick to your centerfire forum.

Dick Wright
02-02-2008, 08:29 AM
Huh?

Who are you? Just another guy who says nasty thing without the cajones to use his real name.

Impressive.

Joe Haller
02-02-2008, 12:53 PM
Lay Off!

I been trying to talk Dick into coming over to the quiet side for the past four years. He is losing his hearing, and NEEDS to cut the Centerfire addiction.

I don't like the present need for Dick and me to be yelling back and forth at each other, just to be heard. If your rant scares him off and back to that centerfire forum, I'll be WRITING THAT LOWER MICHIGAN TROLL NOTES.

Now: Tell him yer sorry . . .

Joe Haller :-)
From Michigan's Upper Peninsula

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Joe_Haller/Logos/CCSALogo.jpg

Joe Haller
02-04-2008, 02:27 AM
Looks like Mr. Anonymous ain't gon'a apologize to Mr. Wright, so let's get on with this Outlaw thread . . .

How many of you outlaws use one of the official rimfire targets?

Do you plink on it, or do you have organized matches, with a set of rules to fit your local shooters?

Do you print up non-standard targets on your inkjet printer?

Do you think official standardized ring size targets are important?

If you shoot in sanctioned matches: Of course you can identify the target you shoot on, but do you know the targets used by any of the other Associations?

Test time:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Joe_Haller/Targets/9rimfiretargets.jpg

Viper225
02-13-2008, 12:07 PM
Joe
We are shooting 100 Yard Bench Rest pretty much using your rules, with one exception. We have added a 17 RF Class.

We shoot our match on 5 each 8.5 X 11 Single Bull Targets, 10 Rounds per target, 50 Rounds Total.
We have an A and B Range. We let the shooter tune up, adjust his/her sights on the B Range, then when he/she moves to the A Range all rounds are for score, no sighters. All 5 targets are placed side by side. The shooter fires all 50 rounds, and the targets are pulled and scored.

TARGETS: Tom Grace one of our local shooters designed our target, and the local printing shop prints them on White Card Stock for us. They have a .5 Black 10 Ring, and the 9 Ring thru 3 Rings are spaced at .25 apart. The 2 and 1 Rings are spaced at 1 Inch.

Thus far we have not had a problem with scoring this target. No one has shot the Center out of one yet.

EQUIPMENT: We have a variety, CZ 452's, Savage HB Accu Triggers, a lone 77/22, a Cooper, Anschutz 54's, and 64's. And the ever present DCM type rifles. My brother will be getting his old Russian VOSTOK CM-2 Unlimited Rifle together shortly. At our last match Vintage Small Bore was the biggest class. We will probably need a couple more months for the weather to get better to see how everything pans out. We are just getting this up and running. I am expecting it to do pretty well.

AMMUNITION: Almost exclusively Wolf MT. I saw one shooter with Fiochi at the last match.

We charge $10 to shoot the Match per class. We give out a printed Certificate that I print up on my computer.

EGG SHOOT: We are planning a couple Egg Shoots this year also. That should be interesting. :D

Our Club has had good luck with Outlaw Matches. HI-POWER: We shoot a 100 thru 800 yard Sniper Match using Simulators. A 100 thru 800 yard Multi Range F Class Match ( 5 rounds from each Berm 100 thru 800 yards), and now the 100 Yard Rim Fire Match.

You did well on your Match Rules.
I guess we could hold these matches as HBBR (Hill Billy Bench Rest) :):)

Bob Roach
Big Piney Sportsman's Club
Houston, Missouri
roachw@wildblue.net

Joe Haller
02-14-2008, 12:21 AM
Thank you for the interesting post. I am please to learn that you are using the rules we developed for the RFC On-Line-Matches. A lot of thought with suggestions from a lot of shooters when into those rules. We allow the .17s to shoot with us, and if enough of them ever turn out for the matches, we will set up a special class for them.

We just set up the rules for that Vintage Smallbore Class last October. Looks like it is going to get popular. The rules for that class were decided by popular vote in a poll on RFC last September. About 50 shooters voted on the rules. They are the will of the majority of the shooters who voted.

We have tried some 100 yard score matches here at our club in Northern Michigan, and I set up a postal match for 5 shot group matches at 100 yards, on RFC. They never became popular. I think UP here the reason is we have a bunch of OLD men that don't want to walk all the way down to the 100 line target frames. Our 25 yard matches are more popular than our 50 yard matches.

You mentioned naming the matches "Hill Billy Bench Rest" (HBBR) Did you know that the dictionary sez a Hill Billy is a Northern Michigan Farmer?

How about putting up a graphic in PDF format of your custom 100 yard target? Maybe some of us could share your match on the internet. And, maybe we can get the young guys to walk down and put up the targets for us.

Joe Haller :-)