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View Full Version : Chambering: indicate bore before threading and/or before reamer?



Mram10
07-28-2019, 01:47 AM
I have read of a few guys that indicate, thread and then indicate again before running in the reamer. I have always indicated once in a 4 jaw then threaded and ran the reamer. Has anyone had a barrel move on them between those steps?

JerrySharrett
07-28-2019, 07:46 AM
I have read of a few guys that indicate, thread and then indicate again before running in the reamer. I have always indicated once in a 4 jaw then threaded and ran the reamer. Has anyone had a barrel move on them between those steps?

Yes, the barrel can move.

Best to indicate, ream, then thread. Its not important that the threads be dead nuts on, but it is important that the chamber be dead nuts true with the bore.

Indicate several times for an accurate chambering.


/

retired
07-29-2019, 12:59 PM
lol


Yes, the barrel can move.

Best to indicate, ream, then thread. Its not important that the threads be dead nuts on, but it is important that the chamber be dead nuts true with the bore.

Indicate several times for an accurate chambering.


/

Hillbilly
07-29-2019, 02:23 PM
Whats so Funny???

Mram10
07-29-2019, 04:42 PM
Iím curious too. Iíve heard of guys indicating multiple times, but canít imagine the barrel moving once toques down in the 4 jaw. I use aluminum wire between the jaws and barrel.

Dave Tooley
07-29-2019, 09:05 PM
If you don't have confidence in your setup you need a different setup.

jackie schmidt
07-29-2019, 10:39 PM
I rough indicate the barrel, rough out the threads to within about .010 inch. I then indicate the barrel and establish the best chamber I can. Then I finish the tenon, set the headspace, cone, etc.

I then go back and check things.

DSM
07-30-2019, 12:16 AM
I have never had a barrel move after dialing in. Every chamber gets checked and the Interapid will let me know how it turned out. If it moves, there is a problem. It's all in the setup and the guy cranking the handles...

Mram10
07-30-2019, 09:32 AM
If you don't have confidence in your setup you need a different setup.

Has nothing to do with confidence. There is always a better way to do something. Just seeing what other guys do

Mram10
07-30-2019, 09:34 AM
I rough indicate the barrel, rough out the threads to within about .010 inch. I then indicate the barrel and establish the best chamber I can. Then I finish the tenon, set the headspace, cone, etc.

I then go back and check things.

Thank you, Sir. Iíve read a lot of threads about your setups and they obviously work.

Butch Lambert
07-30-2019, 06:41 PM
Dave, I guess old M rap showed you. I guess when you have chambered as many barrels as he has you will understand.

Dave Tooley
07-30-2019, 08:07 PM
Dave, I guess old M rap showed you. I guess when you have chambered as many barrels as he has you will understand.

👍👍👍👍

I am humbled in his presence.

retired
07-30-2019, 08:21 PM
and remember

"Best to indicate, ream, then thread. Its not important that the threads be dead nuts on, but it is important that the chamber be dead nuts true with the bore."



👍👍👍👍

I am humbled in his presence.

Mram10
07-31-2019, 09:33 AM
Dave, I guess old M rap showed you. I guess when you have chambered as many barrels as he has you will understand.

You are the worst trash talker, man. Come on, you can do better than that! Iím disappointed in you, yet again

Mram10
07-31-2019, 09:38 AM
👍👍👍👍

I am humbled in his presence.

Thanks Dave, but Iím just a normal guy who puts on his pants one leg at a time like you :)

Butch Lambert
07-31-2019, 12:37 PM
You are the worst trash talker, man. Come on, you can do better than that! Iím disappointed in you, yet again

Man, I'm so sad! Give you a little pat on your butt and you don't know how to respond.

alinwa
07-31-2019, 01:46 PM
I'm so happy to see Mram10 isn't all upset here...... that he'll still let Dave know "he can relax in his august presence, that he's just a normal everyday guy, just like Tooley"

Thanks so much Mram10 for saving some grace for the little people




When you are dead

You don't know you are dead

so it's hard only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.

JerrySharrett
08-01-2019, 06:17 AM
Butch Lambert, Dave Tooley, what do you guys know??

After all you guys have only built a few hundred rifles!!


.

alinwa
08-01-2019, 12:07 PM
Ohhh, and having had many barrels move while gripped with AL.....pads, wire, flatstock and milled rockers.....I will never use AL as a primary gripping surface again.

I've also used CU in these various configurations and am very happy with my latest creation wherein I run tie-wire thru 3/8" chunks of 1/4" copper tubing and after tying it to the jaws I SMASH IT onto the barrel surface. I've used the last set of wires on 7 barrels now and haven't had to replace it (which would entail a cost of 8-11min and approximately $.26)

Speaking of cost....I still have 30-40 70yr-old pennies from my lastest-bestest idea setup (not mine, from Jerry Sharrett) but I just don't have enough hands for Sharrett's method. Man must be an octopus!

LOL



That said, I DO check and while even 1/4" CU wire can move if you're not careful. I've never had pennies nor my newest tubing method move.

retired
08-01-2019, 02:49 PM
put grease on the pennies to hold them while closing the jaws.


Ohhh, and having had many barrels move while gripped with AL.....pads, wire, flatstock and milled rockers.....I will never use AL as a primary gripping surface again.

I've also used CU in these various configurations and am very happy with my latest creation wherein I run tie-wire thru 3/8" chunks of 1/4" copper tubing and after tying it to the jaws I SMASH IT onto the barrel surface. I've used the last set of wires on 7 barrels now and haven't had to replace it (which would entail a cost of 8-11min and approximately $.26)

Speaking of cost....I still have 30-40 70yr-old pennies from my lastest-bestest idea setup (not mine, from Jerry Sharrett) but I just don't have enough hands for Sharrett's method. Man must be an octopus!

LOL



That said, I DO check and while even 1/4" CU wire can move if you're not careful. I've never had pennies nor my newest tubing method move.

Mram10
08-01-2019, 03:59 PM
Butch Lambert, Dave Tooley, what do you guys know??

After all you guys have only built a few hundred rifles!!


.
Iíve built a few hundred rifles ....

Mram10
08-01-2019, 04:02 PM
Back to my original question about indicating. Do most do on initial setup only or periodically indicate throughout?

alinwa
08-01-2019, 04:06 PM
put grease on the pennies to hold them while closing the jaws.



Yeahh, I tried that. Used to use that for thread wires.... didn't work for me on the pennies.

jackie schmidt
08-01-2019, 04:07 PM
Thank you, Sir. Iíve read a lot of threads about your setups and they obviously work.

It's just good Machine shop practice.

Mram10
08-01-2019, 04:16 PM
It's just good Machine shop practice.

Definitely my weakness. I never had any training in a real machine shop. Just learned from watching old gunsmiths. I could use real machine shop training.

Louis.J
08-02-2019, 12:14 PM
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?59097-Jackie-chambering-a-Barrel-(Pictures

SGS
08-02-2019, 12:36 PM
Back to my original question about indicating. Do most do on initial setup only or periodically indicate throughout?

I'll go out on a limb. Most just indicate and then turn the tenon to major diameter, thread, cut recess, and chamber. Those that are very particular about straight chambers and or have reason to suspect that the setup is prone to moving re indicate before pre boring the chamber.

If you want the answer that is right for you, just adopt the practice and see what happens. If you find yourself making adjustments on the second indicating, try other materials for your chuck contact. I agree with Al that aluminum wire is probably not the best choice. Another factor is just how much pressure your machining tool is applying to the tenon. For example: heavy cuts with a larger radius insert, using a parting tool to cut the end of the blank, dull insert, etc. all load the workpiece and might contribute to movement. Remember you have a very small contact area when you cushion the chuck jaws with wire.

alinwa
08-02-2019, 01:16 PM
Increased gripping surface is a laudable goal BUT...... in my case the ability to pivot is paramount.

OD is never concentric with ID

Holes are never bored straight.

Lathes are never straight.

Chucks are never straight.

((I've watched in awe these huge threads on the "Machinist" forums where guys balance and true and align bore and otherwise mutilate their chucks claiming to be making them "straight" ........ I am daily blown away with folks and their fixations on inconsequential details as being "important" all while thinking machines are "rigid" as if size eliminates flex..... it's nearly as stupid as those threads over on the Yukking It Up Around Ye Jollie Woodpile where guys go on and on about "press alignment" and "making straight reloads" because they spun their case 3-times widdershins in their massive align-bored Hollywood Double-Pumper ))

Large gripping surfaces tend to transmit their mis-alignments to the workpiece.

So, for ME, it's a delicate balance betwixt a stress-free swiveling action and adequate gripping force without distorting the squishy barrel. (When the pilot suddenly gets sticky, YOU'RE TOO TIGHT!! .... LOL)

I build an entire rifle around the 1 inch section of the bore that the bullet sees........ I simply don't CARE how far from center the barrel points, it's pointless to care. I do KNOW where it'll hit, just don't care how crooked it is. I use the crookedyness to my advantage, steering the rifle with it.....Yesterday I found out that a certain barrel I'd fitted to a Neuvo a month ago screwed right into another glued-in setup. I screwed 'er together, checked my notes concerning where that barrel pointed on the other gun, eyeballed my (new) index marks and HELD OFF 7 INCHES on my first shot to put the first bullet within an inch of my last group @ 100yds. Just because....."I Could"

Mram10
08-03-2019, 04:02 AM
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?59097-Jackie-chambering-a-Barrel-(Pictures

I downloaded that a while back, thanks

jackie schmidt
08-03-2019, 07:21 AM
I downloaded that a while back, thanks

Wow, itís been 10 years since Gary and I did that. I was a young man:D

Pete Wass
08-03-2019, 11:02 AM
Definitely my weakness. I never had any training in a real machine shop. Just learned from watching old gunsmiths. I could use real machine shop training.

sells a series of Machine Shop Training Videos for not much money. You can find him often on Youtube. He is a retired Shop Teacher and has a couple thousand Youtube videos available, some to buy and some for free. He isn't the only one. There are multiple Shop Practices Youtube videos available for the clicking.

Pete

GeneT
08-03-2019, 11:05 AM
Wow, itís been 10 years since Gary and I did that. I was a young man:D

Has your process changed at all in those 10 years?

GsT

jackie schmidt
08-03-2019, 07:58 PM
Has your process changed at all in those 10 years?

GsT

Not much. I am still using the same Pratt & Whitney Lathe.

Mram10
08-04-2019, 12:05 AM
Pete, thanks. I try to watch as many videos as I can when Iím on the road. Tubalcain is one of my favorites.

Jackie, I hear ya.... those years are flying by

Louis.J
08-04-2019, 12:24 PM
They did indeed Fly on by I didn't realize it was already that far back when it was first posted.

GeneT
08-04-2019, 06:50 PM
Not much. I am still using the same Pratt & Whitney Lathe.

I appreciate your sharing your methods some decade ago, as well as your response to my question.

Cheers!

GsT

Pete Wass
08-10-2019, 11:31 AM
Pete, thanks. I try to watch as many videos as I can when Iím on the road. Tubalcain is one of my favorites.

Jackie, I hear ya.... those years are flying by

of chambering videos as well, The Viper for one and Gordie Gritters for another. Chambering barrels is really pretty easy stuff in the realm of machining, generally. I have done prolly ten now and all of them have shot a lot better than I can. I don't understand why the whole thing is so intimidating to folks and I'm somewhat ham fisted when it comes to machining.

Pete

Mram10
08-10-2019, 11:49 PM
of chambering videos as well, The Viper for one and Gordie Gritters for another. Chambering barrels is really pretty easy stuff in the realm of machining, generally. I have done prolly ten now and all of them have shot a lot better than I can. I don't understand why the whole thing is so intimidating to folks and I'm somewhat ham fisted when it comes to machining.

Pete

Thanks. Watched viper and Gordy videos numerous times. Always trying to learn from guys that do things a bit different. My buddy that retired and taught me said the same. He always laughed and said ďI ainít a machinist. Just know how to turn and thread barrels. It isnít hard.Ē You guys are right

Mram10
08-10-2019, 11:55 PM
Talked to a guy named Alex Wheeler when I was just learning a few years back and he was nice enough to answer a bunch of questions over about an hour conversation. Great guy. Makes high end stuff and he told me, ďdonít worry about most of the bs you hear on the forums. Some guys think theyíre saving the effing world by chambering a rifle.Ē Made me laugh but he stressed simple machining practices.

Mike Bryant
10-30-2019, 02:12 PM
You can put a dial indicator in the bore at any step after the initial indicating in of the bore. If nothing else, it will give you confidence in your setup. Iíve changed my procedure some since I wrote that article in Precision Shooting in the early 90ís. I still indicate in at the projected throat, drill and pre bore out most of the chamber. Whether you cut the tenon, thread and then chamber or chamber first, then cut the tenon and thread doesnít make any difference as long as your setup is solid. Now I usually cut the tenon, thread and chamber in that order. Then check the finished neck and throat with a dial indicator and bore scope after the barrel is chambered and before I take it out of the lathe.

JerrySharrett
10-31-2019, 06:25 AM
Like Mike explains. check the finished product with a borescope if you are doing a benchrest chamber. if the 11/2-2 degree leade is not perfectly centered is probably will not shoot benchrest groups.


.

Bill Leeper
11-02-2019, 12:14 PM
I have always turned and threaded the tenon then chambered. When I first started doing barrel work (1977), turned and threaded the barrel between centers then set up in the steady rest or the four jaw chuck to chamber. I preferred using the steady because the tailstock on the lathe I was using at the time sat a little high and I could compensate with the steady. The method worked well but there were unavoidable compromises made (as there are with any set-up, really). In the mid eighties, I started doing all chambering and threading while set up through the headstock. Since then, I might vary the set-up or the order of doing things from time to time but mostly, I've stayed with it.
Years ago I came up with some very soft iron wire (3/16) and that is what I use to hold the barrel in the 4-jaw. Either that or some 1/8 inch brass rod.
I have seen very few barrels which appeared to be nearly straight and only one which I would have called perfectly straight. By the way, that barrel was wasted on a 300 mag. hunting rifle! Regards, Bill.

Mram10
11-02-2019, 07:34 PM
Thanks guys. They shoot well, but it is hard to compare a light hunting rifle to a br rifle. I like the wire around the barrel trick.

alinwa
11-02-2019, 09:26 PM
Thanks guys. They shoot well, but it is hard to compare a light hunting rifle to a br rifle. I like the wire around the barrel trick.
No it ain't...... I do it all the time


'Course it DOES require a BR Rifle.

OOPS, yer right..... that WOULD BE HARD

for you

skeetlee
11-07-2019, 03:46 PM
I cant seem to figure out how to post pictures bit I've built a chuck that absolutly will not move while machining a barrel. I wish I could share the pics. If someone can help please let me know.
I use a 3/8 fine thread machine screw that I machined the end for a small magnet and a 3/8 steel bearing. I then place a shoe that I machined for the 3/8 bearing with a 3/8 ball mill between the bearing and barrel. The set up is basically a spider chuck but the balls and shoes allow for the barrel to tumble and they are rick solid.

Butch Lambert
11-07-2019, 04:04 PM
I cant seem to figure out how to post pictures bit I've built a chuck that absolutly will not move while machining a barrel. I wish I could share the pics. If someone can help please let me know.
I use a 3/8 fine thread machine screw that I machined the end for a small magnet and a 3/8 steel bearing. I then place a shoe that I machined for the 3/8 bearing with a 3/8 ball mill between the bearing and barrel. The set up is basically a spider chuck but the balls and shoes allow for the barrel to tumble and they are rick solid.

Where have you been Lee? I believe Nez, Bamban, showed photos of his set up that is similar or the same as yours.

Mram10
11-07-2019, 09:08 PM
No it ain't...... I do it all the time


'Course it DOES require a BR Rifle.

OOPS, yer right..... that WOULD BE HARD

for you

Very true. I only own long range hunting rifle since thatís my passion. When I can no longer hike the mountains, I might build a 70 lb 7br (still have the reamer, gauges and components) and sit firmly on a bench with my best friends drinking ice tea and complaining about the news of the day.

alinwa
11-07-2019, 11:15 PM
Very true. I only own long range hunting rifle since thatís my passion. When I can no longer hike the mountains, I might build a 70 lb 7br (still have the reamer, gauges and components) and sit firmly on a bench with my best friends drinking ice tea and complaining about the news of the day.

Just remember DodgeBoy...... the ignore button is your friend, or at least you SAY repeatedly that it's your friend.... but if you actually would like to make human friends, and show them how i'tis, (or learn how it is) you go ahead and make that thar 70lber and then you taken it on out and shoot it with witnesses, at a match.

It'll reset your clock.

There is N O T H I N G to compare with being thoroughly trounced in the real world to change the way you think of accuracy.

I double-dog-DARE you to go out and shoot with some of them Olde Pharts of whom you speak so disparagingly. "complaining about the news of the day" myass....

Mram10
11-08-2019, 08:26 AM
I missed this dodge boy guy knocking older gents! Iím offended! Imo, I have learned the most from the older gents in my life that said very few words. You know, the ones that when you asked them about Korea, youíd have to pull stories from them. The guys that didnít offer up any advice unless asked, but when you finally ask, thy have a short sentence that puts everything into light. I love old guys .... and Iím getting there quick.

Shame on that dodgeball guy! :)

Butch Lambert
11-08-2019, 10:42 AM
I missed this dodge boy guy knocking older gents! Iím offended! Imo, I have learned the most from the older gents in my life that said very few words. You know, the ones that when you asked them about Korea, youíd have to pull stories from them. The guys that didnít offer up any advice unless asked, but when you finally ask, thy have a short sentence that puts everything into light. I love old guys .... and Iím getting there quick.

Shame on that dodgeball guy! :)

;)

Mram10
11-08-2019, 08:24 PM
;)

Whereís the real Butch!? Heís never smiled anywhere close to me!

Richard
11-08-2019, 08:43 PM
I cant seem to figure out how to post pictures bit I've built a chuck that absolutly will not move while machining a barrel. I wish I could share the pics. If someone can help please let me know.
I use a 3/8 fine thread machine screw that I machined the end for a small magnet and a 3/8 steel bearing. I then place a shoe that I machined for the 3/8 bearing with a 3/8 ball mill between the bearing and barrel. The set up is basically a spider chuck but the balls and shoes allow for the barrel to tumble and they are rick solid.

4 or 5 years ago and wouldn't go back to any other. It allows you to chuck up on the taper of a Rem Varmint coutour with no problems. Straight screws were always a problem on the taper section of a bbl. Your right, it's a rock solid way to hold a bbl.

Richard

Al Nyhus
11-10-2019, 09:57 AM
I cant seem to figure out how to post pictures bit I've built a chuck that absolutly will not move while machining a barrel. I wish I could share the pics. If someone can help please let me know.

If you'd like to email me the pics, I can post them for you and you can comment on them. Send me a PM for my email.

Good shootin'. :) -Al

coyotechet
11-10-2019, 01:12 PM
I think this set up is very close to what Skeetlee is using. I made this set up about two years ago. Hold's the barrel stress-free with no movement. Also, have made this same setup for a couple of friends using the Bald Eagle Alum spider

Chet


23108 23109 23110

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alinwa
11-10-2019, 03:57 PM
I think this set up is very close to what Skeetlee is using. I made this set up about two years ago. Hold's the barrel stress-free with no movement. Also, have made this same setup for a couple of friends using the Bald Eagle Alum spider

Chet


23108 23109 23110

23111 23112 23113

Dude that's just sick! None of my equipment has ever been that clean. It wasn't that clean in the shipping crate.....A guy could set his sammich on that between bites. Even if it's white bread...

GeneT
11-10-2019, 07:06 PM
I think this set up is very close to what Skeetlee is using. I made this set up about two years ago. Hold's the barrel stress-free with no movement. Also, have made this same setup for a couple of friends using the Bald Eagle Alum spider

Chet


23108 23109 23110

23111 23112 23113

That's more or less what I envisioned with SkeetLee's post, but your execution of the concept is excellent. Nicely done!

GsT

Richard
11-10-2019, 09:19 PM
tidbit of what Chet can do. I have seen alot of the dodads that he makes and it's just amazing.

Richard

Zebra13
11-11-2019, 01:28 PM
Another option for those of you who use spiders. Too bad they're not fine thread...

https://www.mcmaster.com/92432A464

Justin

Butch Lambert
11-11-2019, 03:55 PM
Justin, I see two problems other than the TPI. They have very little area bearing on the barrel and I'm not a fan of the metal in the swivel tips.
Kinda like the old Porsche rocker arm adjusting screws.

Zebra13
11-13-2019, 12:30 PM
Justin, I see two problems other than the TPI. They have very little area bearing on the barrel and I'm not a fan of the metal in the swivel tips.
Kinda like the old Porsche rocker arm adjusting screws.

Butch,

Not a fan of the metal in the tips, or just not a fan of metal tips?

I used these for a spider I just built for the outboard side of my Emco Super 11. I didn't want steel to steel contact, so I epoxied little brass shim stock discs to the bottom of them. I thought about making little brass press on feet for them, but took the easy way for starters. I think they'll be fine for my application where there isn't any stress put on the barrel via machining ops.

I agree with you on small bearing surface...too small for turning and threading, but one could build feet similar to Chet's for them to increase surface area, but you still gotta deal with the coarse thread.

Chet's setup is slick!

Justin

BillBrawand
11-15-2019, 01:24 PM
Have seen emery used beetwen barrel and jaws billb